ITT: Why God exists

[Darth Yoda]

hoo cares

[oats]

Originally Posted by The Mind Assassin

Restate your question in the final form you wish me to answer.

Couple of questions:

What is the purpose of free will?

Is there free will in heaven?

Why did god create humans?

[Dominate]

Just to be clear, @Veritas

You are arguing that because the theory of evolution does not explain how the simplest forms of life first came about, the entire theory is debunked?

[Destroyer]

yes, fossil evidence was planted by demons
get with it dom!

[veritas]

1. This has already happened. Once you understand that the deterministic vs free will thing is easily understood. I.e. you can do whatver you choose but god already knows the end of your choice. The whole purpose of free will is to choose to give it away for Gods will. Too soon?

2. I do not know.

3. To glorify Him.

[Destroyer]

poor V, intellectual in every other arena...

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Dominate

Just to be clear, @Veritas

You are arguing that because the theory of evolution does not explain how the simplest forms of life first came about, the entire theory is debunked?

It is so simple it is profound:

We are given two choices of what to believe caused us to be here.

1. God made us us
2. We evolved into us

Any intelligent person can realize that choice 2 is nonsense. All I have to do is keep asking *where did that come from?* and sooner or later *I dont know* is that amswer.

So instead of having faith in evolution I will have it in God.

Easy.

/thread

[Dominate]

nvm. from your first post its clear that's your line of thought.

Originally Posted by The Mind Assassin

I will start and end this thread homey.


we are given two choices as to how we exist.

1. god made us
2. we evolved.


I say that God exists because we are here. I say that because evolution is the easiest thing in the world to disprove.

carry on.

Or 3. God made the universe and all the physical laws that govern it. Evolution happened as a consequence.

Why not^ ?


Also, the theory of evolution doesn't concern itself with how life initially came about, only with how life evolved from one form to another. Even if we accept your premise that god created life, this does not disprove evolution.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

poor V, intellectual in every other arena...

Why?

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Dominate

nvm. from your first post its clear that's your line of thought.




Or 3. God made the universe and all the physical laws that govern it. Evolution happened as a consequence.

Why not^ ?


Also, the theory of evolution doesn't concern itself with how life initially came about, only with how life evolved from one form to another. Even if we accept your premise that god created life, this does not disprove evolution.

Lol the thread is prove God. I proved God through disproving evolution without god os possible....keep up.

[Dominate]

You didnt.

but Why do you think the existance of god and evolution are mutually exclusive?

[Dominate]

Wait, I'm going to rephrase the question

[veritas]

I dont. Others do. I also do not belive in evolution...but I am humoring its existence to show it is not mutually exclusive.


Proving that you will either have faith in god or evolution. I choose god.


Now....evolution is stupid. And mathematically impossible.

I do believe animals adapt over time...but for a fish to eventually become a bird is nonsense.

[Dominate]

First, your conception of evolution is flawed. evolution is not an antithesis to god. The existence of god and the existence of evolution are compatible. Proving evolution does not disprove the existance of god and proving the existence of god does not disprove evolution.

But the crux of tour argument is that because science can't explain the origin of life, god must exist.

I don't see the logic behind that. Science finds new knowledge every day. We don't know the origin of life YET, and we may become extinct before we become able to explain it.

Regardless, a lack of proof for one theory does not prove another. That's just not how logic works. Where two theories are mutually exclusive, actually disproving one does prove the other. But a lack of proof is far from a disproof.

[DLB]

v/dom

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Dominate

First, your conception of evolution is flawed. evolution is not an antithesis to god. The existence of god and the existence of evolution are compatible. Proving evolution does not disprove the existance of god and proving the existence of god does not disprove evolution.

But the crux of tour argument is that because science can't explain the origin of life, god must exist.

I don't see the logic behind that. Science finds new knowledge every day. We don't know the origin of life YET, and we may become extinct before we become able to explain it.

Regardless, a lack of proof for one theory does not prove another. That's just not how logic works. Where two theories are mutually exclusive, actually disproving one does prove the other. But a lack of proof is far from a disproof.

Thank you for proving my point. You may see it in time.

Now...let me disprove evolution:

Why have we never seen anything evolve?

[veritas]

Originally Posted by The Mind Assassin

I dont. Others do. I also do not belive in evolution...but I am humoring its existence to show it is not mutually exclusive.


Proving that you will either have faith in god or evolution. I choose god.


Now....evolution is stupid. And mathematically impossible.

I do believe animals adapt over time...but for a fish to eventually become a bird is nonsense.

[Plot]

Because its a gradual process that takes years, decades even.
Do you know what man made selective breeding is?
Do you think the dairy cow you get your milk from existed in the wild?
It was selectively breeded by man thousands of years ago from Aurochs.
Do you think a sausage dog existed in the wild? It was selectively
breeded by man from other breeds of dogs which if you follow the chain
back came from wolves. There wasn't a point where a wolf gave birth
to a fucking sausage dog.

[Plot]

Do you think trees are alive?

[Mael]

Originally Posted by oats

this is a loaded question, and not helping your case tbh. theologically speaking, at least from the judeo-christian line of thinking, having free will necessitates suffering/sin. also, the premise would be contested, since biblically, all are born as flawed creatures, meaning no one is "good" in that sense. that's just a moral compass that humans use to differentiate between shitty people and shittier people. again, this is speaking from a theological standpoint to address your question.

my problem with that line of thought, and veritas I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, is whether or not christians believe free will exists in heaven. If yes, then clearly free will does not necessitate sin, and all of human existence seems pretty pointless, unless God planned on/wanted people to go to hell, which is incompatible with the christian view of God.

Or there is no free will in heaven, which begs the question - why have it on Earth then? It's taught that free will is the ultimate sign of love from the omnipotent creator, but if his cradle of perfection (heaven) doesn't include it, then it doesn't sound like free will is all that great of a gift from God.

either way, God doesn't come out looking good.

Bare with me.

1) Yes, there is free will in Heaven. Lucifer was a prime example of this. Without free will he wouldn't have had the ability to choose rebellion and an attempt to stage a coup, in which he failed miserably and was given an ultimatum along with 1/3rd of the angels he convinced to follow him. That resulted in all of them being the first inmates in their state's jail, we know as hell.

2) There's a debate among theologians whether God specifically created people to go to hell, and it's based on this scripture;

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
- Proverbs 16:4

3) One of the greatest misconceptions of all time concerning Christianity and biblical ideology is the idea that heaven is the final destination. This is simply not true. I believe it was the theolegian Dr. Myles Munroe who said; "God created angels to sing. I wouldn't want to hear you sing either", and even went on to say "God doesn't even want you in heaven, that's why he's going to start it all over again with a new earth."

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
- Revelation 21:1

@oats, remember Hume's Problem of induction? Consider that we are assuming pleasure/good is the inherent (default) state. This is an assumption. In other words, evil ought have equal prevalence.