Clinton vs Trump, who would you vote for if it comes down to this?

[uh-oh]

Also V you shouldve stated your terrible analogy along the lines of 10 people want to stay at your house and one might have ebola. It wouldve made more sense, yet still been irrelevant. But i like to see you fighting the good fight.

[Objective]

@uh-oh and @Mike Wrecka, I will get back to your points at a later notice. I read it some time back and started writing some but in order to be sure it was true I had to read up on some things and educate myself first. In the moment of doing so, I went to the toilet, went back to facebook, then youtube and blam closed the browser. Fuck... But I'll adress them later on.

In the meantime I advice you, and everyone else for that matter, to read this and reflect on the words before attacking (or even defending) the points it makes: http://www.thenation.com/article/aft...ard-heres-why/ After you've done that I'll be happy to debate further because your views are pretty foreign to me and I can learn more about the mentality behind those that oppose them.

From the article:

I was dumbfounded. Norway, Denmark, and Sweden practice variations of a system that works much better than ours. Yet even the Democratic presidential candidates, who say they love or want to learn from those countries, don’t seem know how they actually work.

Also:

So here’s the big difference: In Norway, capitalism serves the people. The government, elected by the people, sees to that. All eight of the parties that won parliamentary seats in the last national election—including the conservative Høyre party now leading the government—are committed to maintaining the welfare state. In the United States, however, neoliberal politics puts the foxes in charge of the henhouse, and capitalists have used the wealth generated by their enterprises (as well as financial and political manipulations) to capture the state and pluck the chickens.

[uh-oh]

I read it. I'll sleep on it and get at this tomorrow, one thing i will say is i disagree with everything to do with workers unions. Maybe they work differently over there, but over here you need to be cosigned in, pay exorbitant fees so the union leaders can throw shit parties, and they are all overpaid, do shit work at a snails pace and abuse the system to the point that a business or corporation would be stupid to hire union workers when people like me will come in and do a better job for a fraction of there salary.

One thing the US isnt in short supply of is its workforce. If ill do the job for a fraction of what a union will, best believe a Guatemalan will do it for a fraction of qhat i will take.

[uh-oh]

But uhoh, white people and americans feel they are too good to do the jobs illegal immigrants are willing to do. Huh. I wonder why. I work for a living and just had to pay money to the government during tax time. 40 hours a week. 52 weeks a year. Get like 5 holidays off, and 5 sick days paid.

My buddy meanwhile broke his hand got addicted to percocet, now sells them, pays no taxes, knocked his wife up with 3 kids, she works part time at a dollar store, and theyre getting 8 grand back in taxes when his wife didnt even make 8 grand probably, on top of the 600 a month in food stamps, rent assistance from the government etc. They live better than i do off mine, and every other working americans dollars

Eliminate that nonsense, dont give more social programs to help these losers. If they were starving maybe theyd go pick vegetables for minimum wage

America is different than those nordic countries. Our population is huge. The jobs are there, you just have to swallow your pride and work your way up honestly

I get clowned like im a poor savage. Im doing great. I got a shit job at a place i was above working at. I used that shit job to parlay into another shit job. I worked that shit job and got raises each year and now

[uh-oh]

I make more money than most of the people i went to school with and my job is paying for me to further my education in that field so i can make even more money.

No college. No diploma. Just real world american hard work.

My 24k a year or whatever sounds like shit but i have more than i need and live a happy life.

I agree in raising wages in places where cost of living is astronomical. But 12 an hour where im at is like 20 an hour in seattle or some place where 15 an hour makes sense as a minimum wage.

Im almost 5 dollars over the minimum wage. But im a poor uneducated toothless savage so what do i know.

[Certain]

Weren't you under $20,000 a year like two years ago, though? With no health insurance? Why the antipathy toward your roots?

[uh-oh]

Yes and i supported myself and my pops. No government assistance, i tried to get it but i made too much money according to them.

I still have no health insurance. I think its retarded to be forced to pay for it in a free society. Im not against free healthcare, i am against being forced to pay or being penalized

There is no why, really. Its just my views. Maybe its because i live amongst the peasants and see things for what it is. Im also in a small spreadout city, not an unrealistic mega metropolis. I understand that the system in those places is basically rigged if you are underpriveleged and the jobs arent there and all that i get it. I just see that as a problem that should fall on state and local governments. Not the federal government. The feds should be nothing but the military really. The government is to big.

To socialize everything makes it even bigger and more intrusive. We need to cut programs not add them

[Objective]

The Union you speak of sounds corrupt to say the least. That needs a serious clean up because it's supposed to protect the workers and all workers so they get the pay they're supposed to. But it's not a given you're given a job as well.

Everyone knows crime pays if you don't get caught.

If you struggle bad, you struggle bad and can't help it. I'm at a position in life where I can do fuck all, I'm worth shit atm. Just found out last therapist session it's anxiety and depression (knew that) coupled with PTSD (news to me, I didn't think it was that bad but apparently it is). I can't work due to energy levels being so low there's days where I wonder if I can even pick up the frying pan safely and make my own food without setting the house on fire or injure myself. It's that bad due to adrenalin being pumped constantly from the PTSD which goes out on my cortisol, and when that's drained not only am I more prone to getting the flu every other week (like I do) I'm also so drained of energy I can't function properly. And the serious sleep issues doesn't help my case either.

Thanks to help from the state I'm on a program to get me back to work with work practice in a firm that I helped build (we're just starting to get money into the firm now, me and 2 friends runs it and just today we got 4840$ on your firms bank account from clients). I don't get to see these money at all since I can't get paid while I'm on this program, I'm fine with that as it helps me get my life back on track while simultaneously pushing money back into the tax system and making a future for myself. When I'm back to full time work I'll probably make at least four times as much as I do now but unfortunately I mentally and physically can't. When I get back to work I don't mind paying a lot in taxes to give others the chance I have and it'll fast enough be put back into the pool once they get back to work too. Look upon it as investment because without it I'd probably be homeless and going back'n'forth to all kinds of other shit and generally being a dirtperson to society. Sure, people will abuse the system but most won't even though the media say differently. Most people want to feel like they matter and having a steady job and income not dependent on others is a huge factor to that. Those who try to abuse the system will still be put on work related programs etc. and pushed around to find something unless you got a doctors note that you suffer from this or that they won't let it slide. At least not around here, they'll put you on work related programs, school, education and group therapies etc. Prescription drugs is rarely the answer and you need a reform on that too, because the handbook of when to prescribe them is extremely different from the ones they use over here.

Also, I only got high school as well but know quite a bit when it comes to the line of work I'm in (web design, sales department and project management) with a developer with a masters degree in IT and programming on our team and another guy that dropped out of high school in the first week to start working on his own (he's the one that figured me and him should start a firm together since he saw the potential), and I got a knack for people and deals so I've managed to close a couple sales based on that too working with known brand name food chains to private business owners and hospitals. We currently got office spots in a place alongside product designers, architects, photographers and movie producers +++. It's pretty dope.

When I'm out of this shithole I'll make a shitload with my own firm thanks to the help and support of professionals and great colleagues and friends. An opportunity I wouldn't have had elsewhere or could even dream of. I'll agree that I've been really lucky as well though but even if my friends wouldn't be there, and the opportunity of being the co-owner of a firm with equal shares I'd still be working somewhere or going to school while figuring out wtf is wrong with me and work towards what is now my fall back plan of becoming a pre-school teacher. So I'd still have a chance at life.
Most likely, by the way things are going now and the quality of the product we deliver I won't be a poor fuck when I get back in work being my own boss and having therapists and consultants breathing down my neck (but thank God they do, I might have been dead if they didn't and I'm not exaggerating), working about 40-50 hours a week (we aim on 5 days a week, 8 hours a day but deadlines do exist). You know, just living the Nordic Scandinavian dream.

I have been working full time in the past at a daycare (loved it, no Tyson) but I can't keep a full time job right now because I'm severely fucked up in my head. And I'm lucky to have that opportunity due to where I'm from. Sure, your population is a lot higher than we have here but that also means you'll make a lot more in return taxes once it works as it should. It isn't done in a year or two but you'll see the fruits of it soon enough and get more people back in work. There will be more job positions available in the long run since working above a set amount isn't the standard anymore, and bosses and the like won't get so easily away with modern day slavery.

Sucks that you didn't get help for your father and got tough love from the state but it doesn't need to be that way. It SHOULDN'T be that way. Also 40 hours a week, 52 weeks of a year isn't okay. There should be a set minimum wage so that even when you choose the ''shit paid jobs'' it's still good enough to make a decent living when there's laws set in place so it can't go lower than a certain amount either so people will generally go for the most qualified people by default. Corruption may still be an issue but hopefully that'll have repercussions (like they do over here) that could be devastating enough for firms and workplaces to not take that risk since it could mean the end or a serious blow to their empire and end up costing more than they earned during the time it went unnoticed. It only seems unfair to do that now because the system you have are built upon unfair grounds and the rich gets richer while the poor get poorer principle.

I trule hope things change for the better for the US because from the outside I can't do nothing but feel deeply for the majority of you that go through year after year as robots in a system without being looked upon as human beings the majority of the time by the capitalist power structure that further demoralize and hurt your country from the inside.

Don't take me wrong, I love the US and can't wait to visit several states and cities in the future along with its great nature but you best believe I won't go there to get inspired from your way of doing things the next time I got a possible person in front of me that I may or may not hire.

Oh, and the guy I spoke about earlier in this thread with a chronic stomach disease? He's the one that wanted me in on this shit and joined forces with the programmer. Without his extremely expensive meds (in the states he wouldn't be able to afford them) this highly potential of a lucrative firm wouldn't even have been made. But just now we've spat back into the pool quite a bit of money from taxes and used freelancers/designers supplying work from what otherwise would have been impossible without the socialist way of doing things. So even from an economics capitalist standpoint it would foolish not to see the the benefits a system like this gives back for monetary reasons alone.

[Witty]

@Objective I've recently been diagnosed with severe OCD, remember that the human mind can get past anything, keep going bro :)

[veritas]

I want to know, would anyone be willing to let 10 syrians in their house if 1 of them was an ISIS member? And you didn't know which one it was?

Please answer honestly.

[uh-oh]

Veritas, no one would.

Objective word man. I feel you 1000 percent. We just disagree on the base level of how we feel the system should be run.

Firstly i am with you on the mental illness angle. Ive been diagnosed with depression and social anxiety after i went to a crisis center when i was unemployed. I paid nothing. It was all covered by the state/feds or whoever. I talked to a therapist who put me on lexapro and there medical doctor person lady prescribed blood pressure meds since it helps with anxiety. That was after one 20 minute talk. I went back twice for 45 minute therapy session things like talking and each time they upped my dosage, there was like a month inbetween each session. The third time i went they upped the lexapro again and tried putting me on another since none of that was working. I left, threw the pills out and firmly believe depression is make believe. Not in the sense that its not a chemical imbalance but in the sense that you cant just fix it on your own. I spent many a night just crying by myself in a dark room moments away from blowing my brains out. When your life is shit youre supposed to feel like shit. Im not saying your situation is the same. Im just relaying mine. I ended up just telling myself and pretending i was happy. And magically i was. I faked happiness into getting a job and with that job ive done all the things they tell you not to do. Isolate. Avoid people. Cut off friends and now ive legitimately never been happier. Every situation is different. Its not like america wont help people. They tried helping me. Theyll help you get a job and provide housing and all that to get you on your feet.

And thats cool for people, that system didnt help me tho, i had to help myself. The prospect of being homeless forced me to get my shit together.

Its darwinism. You do what you gotta do. If you dont you die.

Thats great that your country is willing to support its people and get them on track but personally in my beliefs i dont think some people should be helped. It weakens the species.

This is where im a shitty human tho. And ill acknowledge it. I dont want to see people suffer. But i can also look at it objectively from a scientific Standpoint.

Thats me tho

I dont want to see people like diode punished for his success even if he is stupid enough to be for it. I want diode to make the money he makes and keep it. I want him to knock his wife up and spread his genes because hes a hardworking dirtball from new jersey that made good.

There is a misconception in this country that you cant live off the minimum wage. And in certain areas that is true. Thats why im for making the minimum wage higher on a local basis, not federally. The minimum wage in ohio is enough for 1 human to support themselves. It isnt a great living. But you can pay your bills and house yourself. Which is all you should be able to do, it gives the incentive to work harder to make more money. I worked minimum wage at subway and the money was shit so i took on more hours and got promotions and shit to get more money and then got a better job altogether.

You shouldnt be able to support a family on minimum wage but again this is where im a shitty human. I dont think you should even be allowed to procreate unless you can support the kid.

I just dont like government. It shouldnt be there to intervene like that. It should literally only exist as a means of diplomacy with other nations and to protect its citizens from other nations. Not themselves.

Thats just my views tho.

[Objective]

Fuck, I'm on mobile now but I'll get back to you. I actually agree with several of your points. A person shouldn't be spoonfed either, the state and my therapist do push me quite a bit as well, and that is needed. Also, different things work for different people. The notion that you can only be happy with lots of friends and isolation sucks isn't right for everyone, blood is not thicker than water either imo. But yeah, I'll get back to you on this, interesting points and you're not a dirt person just cus you want to do things differently.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by uh-oh

Veritas, no one would.

So if it wouldn't work in your house, why would it work in a country?

[MC Fussy]

@uh-oh if you dont like gov vote turnip.


clinton a turncoat. talking about 'did i wipe the servers, do you mean with a cloth?' http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video...cloth-33165989 cmon son.



her whole team should be in jail already she aint even qualified.

swear nixon was the last nigga to face consequences

[Diablo]

lmao think of the lulz if Trump is elected though


DO IT FOR THE LULZ, MURRICA

[Pharaohs Army]

-Enjoy the show while it lasts; if it comes down to Trump vs. Hillary, there is 0%...read, ZERO percent chance Trump wins.
It's a numbers game really.
No matter how fervent or fired up middleaged-nativist-white people get, it's not enough to win the presidency.
Even his appeal to independents or the Anti-Hillary vote will not be close to "enough".
Keep in mind I've been right in the past on these sorts of political predictions. Well, it's not that hard to be right, let me rather say that I was right "early on".

-Trump is funny and entertaining to me most of the time, despite the lies he spews. I'll tell you right now he doesn't believe deep down a lot of what he's saying. He's trying to win the republican nomination, and he's doing a good job of it.

-I hate the religion of Islam, but have I've got nothing against Muslims... Think about it.

-Banning a religious group from emigrating is not realistic or lawful. Not gonna happen; don't worry about it.

-Sure, vet Syrians. Better safe than sorry. But they are desperate. Suffering the worst of human tragedies. Help them.
I'd say there is a much bigger likelihood that the next radical islamist attack on US soil will come from lone wolfs/internet recruits who are already here/already citizens.

-The UK legislature's publicity stunt was pretty laughable. The best thing they could have done to make their point would have been a public statement, which said "We welcome Donald Trump to our country with open arms." Instead they lower themselves to the same tactics they wish to condemn?

-Only way to stop illegal immigration is to punish employers who knowingly hire them. Hefty fines; possible jail terms for repeated violators.

-I could never put my finger on why I dislike Hillary. But I finally figured it out-- besides the inauthentic vibes she gives off... it's more than that. Her public speaking is way too scripted and pandering... And the tone and inflections she uses make it sound like she's addressing her audience as little kids...little children to cheer her speechwriter's concise jab or inspiring phrase. Makes me vomit in my mouth a lil' to hear her speeches.

-People, especially right-wing voters, are so stupid. Benghazi benghazi!!! Talk radio and faux news just continually repeat lies until they become pavlovian response for their sheep..

-Bernie Sanders policy suggestions?... not unrealistic from a funding perspective.. Fractions of a penny taxes for rampant speculation trading.. &forcing the largest tax-dodging corporations to take their money from tax havens and pay... But, yes, unrealistic from a Congress perspective. Don't see Dems winning the house due to gerrymandering and idiots who vote in right wing nuts...also the special interests/lobbyists who court both parties.

-It's almost a dream world we're living in, in this country. The Palin endorsement speech is pretty much a summation of what we've devolved into. And it's not all "our" fault. The public is looking for anything other than "the establishment", and celebrity certainly helps.

-Rubio is the smartest, most acute on policy, and most electable of the Repubes... but he doesn't even do his job in Congress. Absentee alot, even before he was campaigning.
Also, his policies would have us embroiled in more counterproductive wars in the middle east. "Zero daylight" with us and Isreal... lmao, he and Scott Walkers, well... most of their slogan.. Sad.
Oh, and if a girl got raped and impregnated by her Dad he would want her to carry the baby for 9 months.
He's got a better shot at winning the Rnomination than people think.. Cruz and Trump very popular but it's a long year... Trump has been invincible so far but his ego will get him into at least a little bit of trouble at some point before the general election

-Cruz is a weasel, a caricature, but he's good at what he does. 0% chance in the general election as well.

-If I lived in a state where it mattered, I'd probably vote for Sanders because I don't like Hillary and because he is voicing the problems of our fkd up system. But I'm in NY... Hillary. So my 1 vote is quite negligible. We'll see.

-Trump is so easily playing on (not just nativist sentiments), but fantasy sentiments of the good ol' days, when america was the shit and we did whatev we wanted, and before our Debt Economy and military industrial economy and paper/investment economy "caught up with us"...

-No matter who's running for president, a lot of people blame their problems on gays and brown people. A lot, but not enough to win nationwide elections.

-the president does not control the economy, stupid!, as Immortal Technique once said

-It is amazing to me that people do not understand the magnitude of the 07-08 WORLDWIDE financial collapse. I have no problems with Democrat claims that Obama made it "less bad" in the U.S.... I don't love the guy or all his policies, but I think that's true. Many people disagree with that; but if pressed I will provide actual data and facts for my claim, unlike them.

-The problem with the need for massive change and overhaul (money in politics, a calcified congress)...is that people are too busy trying to pay the bills and raise families. Too busy to stay afloat. They don't have time to organize or fight for these things.

-Any substantive policy discussions can be instantly ended by bringing up abortion, gays, or guns...

-Speaking of guns, that's a place where I align more with the right-wingers and Bernie over Hillary.
To think of suing a gun store for millions and ruining the owner's lives... because a dude used one of their guns in a massacre? Ludicrous.
There are already laws on the books. If they were negligent or gave the guy a gun when he shouldn't be allowed to have one-- then they will be sued/prosecuted..

-Certain factions of Liberals have pissed me off of late. It makes me see why some people get so frustrated with them... like.. guns, affirmative action, the ridiculous levels of PC, being offended, needing a certain quota of blacks to win fuckin movie awards or the sky is falling, nothing against gays but stop being flamboyant if you wanna be treated like everyone else..

-Why do we have so many "evangelicals" in this country?
They have big voter turnout; that is another problem in our country.
voting is a basic right though... we should be looking for more folks to vote instead of less.. Right, republicans?

-"Vote them ALLLL out.... then elect the craziest of the craziest Tea partiers,,, that'll help things... u know those rigid constitutionalists who have no ulterior social agendas. lol (sarc)

aight i'll shup now

[Dope girl]

Vote- Clinton

[Objective]

@Witty: I will, I never give up although it seems tough at times. You keep going too. :)
@uh-oh: Finally, some time but I think I actually managed to cover a lot with my previous reply as well. However: ''You shouldnt be able to support a family on minimum wage but again this is where im a shitty human. I dont think you should even be allowed to procreate unless you can support the kid.'' I... Agree. But two people on minimum wage should be able to do so with 37-40h/week, at least with 1 kid. If two people want to make it work with 1 of them being a stay at home mom/dad then you're in tough luck and it's time for the other to get a job as well. This means that things need to be set in place so daycares isn't crippling anyone's financial situation too much, flu shots and other obligatory vaccines taken in school should be free to everyone (don't know if they are in the states, but they are over here and fuck the anti-vaxxers). I do however agree with minimum wages should be locally or by state like you said, it makes the most sense with how the US works.

What I do not agree with is your statement of the state not intervening with how citizens deal with their lives. Why? Because I think it's crippling to a country to not make sure the citizens are having fulfilling lives as over time it'll go out on the economy and/or have negative effects on crime rates and so forth with people taking the ''easy route'' or easier fall into addiction since nothing else works anyways and they may not get the bump they need to get back to work to make money and pay enough taxes that can help out the countryin several meaningful ways when used properly. Free healthcare to a certain extent should be a no-brainer, and any expenses should be based on a persons income and how much they can actually pay. It shouldn't be unfair either to rich people so a decline in costs overall should be set in place, it needs to be balanced in some way as well. But only to a certain extent of course, people shouldn't feel like it's worth to do nothing and I believe there needs to be certain grounds that needs to be met in order to receive welfare like actively looking for a job, help with how to conduct a interview and write a meaningful CV or attending courses/studying to up their qualifications so they can get a job if they lack qualifications to meet those demands. Someone dealing with depression and/or not finding any reasons to live will not do well with a job at McDonalds or Home Depot if their passion lies within IT if nothing is set place to help them get out of that bump and get a job they're okay with. But there should be certain reasons set in place for that to happen.

I also don't like how a shitload of people get in serious debt and battling it for decades for chasing education. It should be motivating to go for, not life altering if they can't get a job the moment they get out of there.
In Norway you can get scholar ships or loans and start paying off your debt once you get a job. Usually the state help with 50% of the cost or 100% depending on what you're going for and at which school given that you don't fail. If you fail the promise of 100% coverage will be brought down to 0%. Even when you fail you start paying once you're having a job and pay it down with a percentage based on how much you earn. If your debt (no matter where it stems from) is so huge you can't even pay a small portion you can gather the parties along with an impartial financial advisor from the state involved and make a deal to pay down as much as you can within 5 years based on a percentage of how much you get from working, and when those 5 years have passed it's cleared so you can start from scratch again and have a future free of debt. If one of the parties doesn't want that, tough luck as the financial advisor will then focus on those willing to through such a deal, focus on them, leave the other one in the dark as it piles up and the debt will be cleared and removed from all systems anyways. Most people are willing to make a deal so they can get at least part of what they initially owe. Often people need to sell their house (if it makes sense and renting somewhere is cheaper), car (and exchange it with a cheaper one if it's needed to get to/from work and public transportation can't get them to where they work) and other items in order to help paying down that debt, the main focus is to get rid of it all. Don't know if that's how it works in the US but it makes sense to me.

I think Bernie Sanders is a great candidate because the most ludicrous things he want to get through with is probably something that'll never happen, while the things that'll help to balance things a bit more and turn things into the right direction will probably happen.

Either way, Hillary over Trump all day, every day. That guys is hands down dangerous and will inevitably ruin important ties you have now.

[MC Fussy]

Originally Posted by Diablo

lmao think of the lulz if Trump is elected though


DO IT FOR THE LULZ, MURRICA

hilary vs trump is destiny. bernie is a dream/joke.

C.A.M.P.A.I.G.N. vote trump for the lulz. imma get stickers made



(but for real vote for palin)

[YDK]

Vote r!can