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Old 09-25-2017, 07:48 AM   #1
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Default Netcees September Book of the Month Discussion Thread

Book: Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates

Aite so to me, this should go beyond the simple "I liked/disliked it because XYZ." When I read books, I tend to look at it like this: did the book work? What was its ambition, and did it execute that ambition? How was it successful/in what ways was it unsuccessful? I think that's a good place to start.

Here are some discussion questions I pulled off the internet as well. This isn't school, so don't feel like you have to address all (or any) of these questions, but I feel like they're a good way to get you thinking about the book.

1. Between the World and Me has been called a book about race, but the author argues that race itself is a flawed, if not useless, concept—it is, if anything, nothing more than a pretext for racism. Early in the book he writes, “Race, is the child of racism, not the father.” The idea of race has been so important in the history of America and in the self-identification of its people—and racial designations have literally marked the difference between life and death in some instances. How does discrediting the idea of race as an immutable, unchangeable fact change the way we look at our history? Ourselves?

2. Fear is palpably described in the book’s opening section and shapes much of Coates’s sense of himself and the world. “When I was your age,” Coates writes to his son, “the only people I knew were black, and all of them were powerfully, adamantly, dangerously afraid.” How did this far inform and distort Coates’s life and way of looking at the world? Is this kind of fear inevitable? Can you relate to his experience? Why or why not?

3. The book is written in the form of a letter. Why do you think Coates chose this literary device? Did the intimacy of an address from a father to his son make you feel closer to the material or kept at a distance?


4. Coates is adamant that he is a writer, not an activist, but critics have argued that, given his expansive following and prominent position, he should be offering more solutions and trying harder to affect real change in American race relations. Do you think he holds any sort of responsibility to do so? Why or why not?


5. Do you think Between the World and Me leaves us with hope for race relations in America? Why or why not? Do you think “hope” was what Coates was trying to convey to readers? If not, what are you left with at the end of the book? If so, hope in what?


I'll come back to this tomorrow and post my thoughts. @Diode can you sticky this instead of the other one por favor? <3
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:52 AM   #2
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@Bags @dead man @Witty @YDK @uh-oh @kannon @Pinot Grij @Panckaebrah @big baby @Rugged @Do Not Reply

forget who else was in on this tbh but yeah post away
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:20 PM   #3
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I'll get at this tonight

Probably more of a review on my end than answering the questions POSED
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Old 09-25-2017, 11:56 PM   #4
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aite so I really liked this book, prob in the range of 4.5 to 5/5 for me. when I think in terms of "what was it trying to accomplish, and did it achieve its ambition" then this was a wildly successful book, not just in the scope of its ambition but also in how humanizing it was without being preachy.

I think the whole premise - that much of the urban black experience in America is driven by fear - was really insightful and wise. I also like how Coates didn't shy away from addressing black on black crime, explaining that much of it came from that same sense of fear and a desire to overcome it. I also found it really interesting to see him grapple with his atheism.

ultimately I thought it was beautifully written, powerful and intelligent without being argumentative. it's essential reading for anyone who is open to understanding how black people experience reality in fundamentally different ways. highly recommend it.
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:30 PM   #5
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Been busy but don't want this to die. Will get into the discussion here soon.
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Old 09-26-2017, 02:31 PM   #6
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I forgot to download it, but there are still a few days left of the month, I WILL read this.
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Old 09-26-2017, 07:22 PM   #7
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i feel like too much time has gone by since i read this and i've already been cleansing my brain of it

but its safe to say this was not an enjoyable read for me. on multiple fronts. the first front being the letter format itself, just came off as the ramblings of some dude to me, and that dude being someone who's posts i would skim over and articles i would skip. the second front being just its not something i would read in the sense that it wasn't entertaining nonsense. it had a point and a message. so even if its point and message aligned with something more palatable to my tastes i wouldn't read it. but, it was short. i think i got through it in 6 shit sessions, combined with a few nights prior to bed falling asleep reading a chunk here and there type sessions.

so the book itself, i found it strange that in one breath he speaks to how race is made up, black people aren't black and white people aren't white, they just label themselves so, but then for the majority of the book he seperates himself into the "black race", but its his perspective coming up in this world so its whatever. the things i found annoying were things i could see well to do white people holding there bleeding hearts for, like oh when he was a kid he seen a kid brandish a firearm! my little johnathan doesn't have to worry about that in suburbia. oh everyone is terrified in the hood, blah blah you get it.

my main problem commiserating is being a dirt person myself, i seen guns brandished as a kid, my neighborhood would fight kids from other neighborhoods, we were little vandals and hooligans, of all races and creeds. when we went around slashing tires and breaking into cars to steal change to buy a blunts worth of weed, we weren't scared misguided children. IT WAS FUN. when the homie jerrel made a home made bomb out of a two liter bottle, toilet bowl cleaner, and aluminum foil to blow up raeshawn's trash can, it wasn't because he was scared, it was because we were just unsupervised youths having fun with nothing to do.

i can't connect on an inner city, segregated level though, but coming up poor as shit around a diverse poor crowd in a failed steel town, to me alot of what is attributed to being fearful, just trying to survive and sell drugs to buy jordans and be fly, getting into fights, so YOU WOULDN'T have to get into fights, just people knowing like yo you hear so and so beat the shit out of so and so, etc. i attribute all that to just being poor, and hip hop culture really. and alot of human nature

so while i went off on a tangent, its just hard for me personally to commiserate with the woe is me black people are victims logic that the left loves, and this book is full of.

oh then he goes to howard university and goes on a search of black histories only to find they aren't there. but goes on tangents about all the garbage he read from black authors, im surprised he didn't mention a black cleopatra. but again that is my own disgust at all this liberal swill shining through. i will credit him for actually pointing to the dynasty of pharoahs that WERE actually black, and not assigning all pharaohs as black, as most of these black scholars try to push

but yea my main problem with it is just the narrative he is pushing on his son that he is a victim. hey son, you got it better than me and here is why, but just remember your A BLACK MAN IN A WORLD OUT TO GET YOU.

stfu

0.5/10
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:42 AM   #8
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You're an asshole.

But your rant does raise one worthy question. Does Coates frame the book as an essay to his son in order to make it unassailable to critique? His work is certainly political - but the form of an essay to his son offers an angle of emotionality and fatherly love that makes it more than a political text. Is that layer of emotion a deliberate strategy on the author's part to make his political arguments more palatable?

I'm not as cynical as to believe that his intentions are that sinister but it is worth consideration.

I loved the book personally. I thought that Coates' love for his son was genuine and soaked through his words. It allows him to enlist the reader to his cause, because it is very difficult to say to yourself that one man's son deserves to live in fear while another's doesn't because of the color of their skin.

@uh-oh - Coates doesn't say there is no such thing as black and white. He says that whiteness is only constructed as a way to position one class above the other. White people can know their heritage and their history and their lineage. Therefore, nothing makes them simply 'white' except for their relation to 'black' people, which is a relationship founded on slavery.

I take Coates' book as a perspective that I am thankful to have gained insight on. I think to simply compare it to your own personal experience as a means to dismiss it is really missing the point. Coates is simply reaching his own conclusions based on a life lived in what is considered the most powerful and "free" nation on earth. And if his is among the perspectives that arise from this so-called great nation, then that is very, very scary.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:10 PM   #9
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well since NO ONE ELSE IS PARTICIPATING IN THE DISCUSSION


obv I agree with Pinot here. I think it's a shallow way to interact with a book to see it through the lens of your own experiences. I'm actually from a place where white people are a minority, I grew up on the poorer end of working class, I've probably been in more fights than Coates - but as soon as I start going down that path, I lose my ability to gain anything from reading.

one of the very best parts of reading is its ability to transport you into a different perspective/mode of thinking/universe. it sounds like you (uh-oh) came into the book with some ideas about it already determined, and responded from those places that you already inhabited. that's just my guess.

but, no one can argue the taste. not saying you have to like the book, or any book, but I think there's more to be gained from trying to meet the author in the middle as opposed to expecting them to come to you nah mean.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:09 AM   #10
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I forgot to download it, but there are still a few days left of the month, I WILL read this.
https://www.mercerislandschools.org/...ates%20PDF.pdf
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:10 AM   #11
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almost done!

got like 30 pages left then ill be BACK
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Not saying being drunk doesn’t mess up you reasoning. I’m turning 20 soon so I haven’t had a drink ever.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:40 AM   #12
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aight bet it. done.

I started this book last nite FYI for any1 thinking they cant finish this quickly?


im walking out for lunch but when I get back im gonna read over the current discussion at hand an see what to add

gone at.5 from uh oh rating tho LMAO sheesh


if absolutely nothing else tho can we first and foremost say that this guy was/is a really entertaining writer?

I feel like he could've been writing about house hold cleaning products and I would've been enthralled
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:42 AM   #13
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one of the very best parts of reading is its ability to transport you into a different perspective/mode of thinking/universe. it sounds like you (uh-oh) came into the book with some ideas about it already determined, and responded from those places that you already inhabited. that's just my guess.
You are correct.

I tried but just consistently would be turned off. It doesnt help when my preconceived ideas of it fit the bill entirely.

I dont like ann coulter for instance. Shes the only far right conservative author i can think of at the moment. But if you were to read something she wrote, it would be hard for you to read it and soak it in without your preconceived viewpoints and political stances polluting your ability to follow her train of thought.

You would consistently be disagreeing with her view of the world and it wouldnt be enjoyable.

I would rather squeeze my dickhead with pliers than read a book from that mongrel. But i feel the same about this guy in the other direction.

Its not something i would enjoy basically
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:02 PM   #14
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That's fair to say, though at least, as bags said, Coates is an excellent writer. Doubtful Coulter is, but couldn't say that for sure since I've never read anything by her.

That being said, I thought he wrote in a way that was consciously not polemical. Even though he was coming from a specific political viewpoint, it never felt like (to me) he was arguing anything. Came off to me as a dude telling and explaining stories more than "X Reqsons Why You Should Support BLM." It was artful.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:59 PM   #15
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Twenty-two pages into this book and I'm entranced. I should finish it by tonight and then I'll give my two-cents. I actually lived close to the same area he lived as a kid (him West Baltimore, myself Southwest Baltimore) so I can somewhat relate to what he's talking about in these first pages I've read. It was really survival of the fittest in the 80's as a kid. You had to have your wits about you. You had to have street smarts. You had to have a close circle of friends you respected and could trust with your life. And this was at the age of eight for me. It might've been even younger for him. I've lived that scene of having a gun shown at me, only for the reason of knowing that they have one and this is a warning. You could be next. I can't wait to read the rest of this book. Great choice Mr. Oats.
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:03 PM   #16
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I take Coates' book as a perspective that I am thankful to have gained insight on. I think to simply compare it to your own personal experience as a means to dismiss it is really missing the point. Coates is simply reaching his own conclusions based on a life lived in what is considered the most powerful and "free" nation on earth. And if his is among the perspectives that arise from this so-called great nation, then that is very, very scary.
this is important. I feel like the validity in his position is solidified simply by the fact that he truly believes in what he is writing. especially in the sense that racism is an idea that people attribute to opinion almost seemingly these days. this man has shaped victimization as his diety just based on his experiences here.

a lot of me wants to feel like stfu its slavery its over move on or stay miserable. and some of me does. but the other part of me as stated above is just in witness of him and the voice he has for who he is representing. its hard to step outside of yourself to give credit to another persons perspective especially one that deems foundational building blocks of your upbringing as evil.

I mean agree tho with uh oh that poor is colorless and the "dream" is for the wealthy not necessarily white America. coates I think also was narrow in his view of "white" as an Italian American I consider myself white, he alluded multiple times in similar comparisons to the black plight that was shared with early foreign transports to America such as the irish & Italian immigrants and for me that sort of lead away from his white is the man and black is the sewer perspective. but again that's me internalizing a small excerpt from the book based on hardships and culture lost for my own family when the schools told my fathers family they were to stop speaking Italian in the household or he could no longer attend etc.....resulting in me being stripped of that language....sure I can learn it now but u get the idea.

trying to kindve summarize my thoughts and touch on others thoughts so far as well so this is a bit of a jumble but to speak on pinot other point about him writing it as a letter to his son so avoid having a political critique put on the work .....I think it would impossible for him to accomplish that after having included insights as insanely bold as to say that 9/11 victims got what was coming to them for participating in slavery ....and I don't think he had any delusions in thinking he would create a shield in veiling this as a letter to his son.
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:05 PM   #17
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Twenty-two pages into this book and I'm entranced. I should finish it by tonight and then I'll give my two-cents. I actually lived close to the same area he lived as a kid (him West Baltimore, myself Southwest Baltimore) so I can somewhat relate to what he's talking about in these first pages I've read. It was really survival of the fittest in the 80's as a kid. You had to have your wits about you. You had to have street smarts. You had to have a close circle of friends you respected and could trust with your life. And this was at the age of eight for me. It might've been even younger for him. I've lived that scene of having a gun shown at me, only for the reason of knowing that they have one and this is a warning. You could be next. I can't wait to read the rest of this book. Great choice Mr. Oats.
oh!! thank you for reminding me!!

@Strikta @Genocide @Moe Jetts


the writer deals with bmore & pg county area a dece bit in this book that may interest you or at least be something you would identify with
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Old 09-29-2017, 06:11 PM   #18
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This book was like a literary version of "The Foundation" by Xzibit. Except it was a lot more descriptive, informative, eloquent, and raw. It felt like a passing of the guard. An unfortunate realism that needed to be explained from father to son to say, "I was there. We both are here. One day, you will be alone...there again. Fight. For you. For your possible children. For your family."

Well written and while disheartening, it is something we all need to read and be reminded of from time to time and never forget.
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:45 PM   #19
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@Bags re: the bit about Italians, the point to me was that while early immigrants (Jews, Irish, Italians) were discriminated against, they were eventually able to assimilate into this amorphous idea of whiteness, whereas black people are defined strictly as being not white and as such can never assimilate. didn't think that took away from his perspective so much as added texture to it, especially since you know you're Italian whereas black Americans have no idea where in Africa their roots are. which, hey, who gives a shit in one sense, but in another sense, that uncertainty (that people of European/Asian descent don't have) created what we now think of as black culture, which is regularly exploited, dismissed, or discredited - hence the sensitivity of some people to Elvis/white rappers/white dudes with dreads etc. Not defending that sensitivity - I used to have dreads lol - but it provides a context to understand it better imo.
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:19 PM   #20
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I'd have to re read that small passage back again but what you're saying makes sense....especially from his perspective.

Not sure really what else to say...lol I don't think I have much of a debate with any1 so far....even uh oh really I dig some of what he said and my issue w the rest wasn't even issue really just commentary and it's been said

Overall glad I read it

9/10 heavily based on the writing....wont say I loved the subject matter but he portrayed it beautifully and it was highly accessible


So in regards to next month....not to derail any additional commentary def still open to taking on this.....but are we all wanting to keep these books pretty slim? Def won't pick a 1000 page mammoth but what are we thinking is ideally a good length......300 pages...?
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Not saying being drunk doesn’t mess up you reasoning. I’m turning 20 soon so I haven’t had a drink ever.
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