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Old 12-11-2020, 04:44 PM   #41
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We already crossed that bridge, that many people already died, so clearly what’s happening NOW AINT WORKING if that’s a measure of failure.

It really is simple. The people you are referring to that are likely to die (mostly elderly or with other health complications) THEY are the ones who should stay home 24/7. I have yet to have ANYONE tell me how someone can catch corona by staying home 24/7.

Everyone else should be able to resume daily lives as normal, no mask mandate, no forced vaccine. Call it at your own risk if you must but lockdowns are killing more than the virus is.
Death rate of corona is 1%. If everyone got infected with no intervention, 1% of the 330million people in America is 3.3 million deaths. The approach you're advocating is the same as condemning millions of people to death. It's genocide by apathy.

We're at almost 300k deaths now, but it would have been a much higher number without the public health interventions. More people would have caught the virus and more people would have died.

You can't only keep elderly people at home because people who aren't at risk are still carriers. You can't isolate at risks populations 100% because they generally need care. You would also need to isolate caretakers. But if caretakers are mixing with general population with widespread community infections, you're going to end up killing the elderly anyway.

Also, deaths and health complications AREN'T limited to the elderly. A lot of it is luck of the draw. If you get a bad case you can die or have permanent disability even if you're young and considered "healthy".

Not to mention hospital capacity. We're maxed out now with the interventions that have been put in place. When you run out of hospital capacity completely death rates will go up across the board for covid/non-covid because you can no longer keep up with treating preventable disease.

The pandemic will end when we get to population immunity. This can either happen by getting exposed to the virus, getting antibodies from blood plasma, or getting one of the vaccines. Depending on what mix of those options we end up with more/fewer people will die, and it will end sooner/later. All of this stuff is scientifically predictable at this point.

Also for the record, I'm not blindly pro-vaccine or pro-lockdown. I'm personally hesitant to take a vaccine where there have been no studies of long term side effects. Also only think lockdowns are needed in places where hospital capacity is an issue. Long term you have to keep the economy going or a lot more people will die from poverty and starvation. But I'm also not going to ignore the fact that some level of intervention needs to be taken to prevent the worse case of deaths.

Masks and masks mandates are proven effective at lowering spread and keeping deaths down. The vaccine will slow down the community spread for the people who are willing to take it. It will be a while before any of us have access to it anyway. We only ordered 50million doses through Feb, so that's only 25million people getting the vaccine (roughly 1 of 13 Americans)
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Old 12-11-2020, 05:00 PM   #42
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Old 12-11-2020, 05:03 PM   #43
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pretty much zero chance of that happening, but thanks for the advice.
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Old 12-11-2020, 05:08 PM   #44
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im just trolling don't mind me. i read your whole post, after posting that lol. you seem well reasoned.
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Old 12-11-2020, 05:40 PM   #45
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Death rate of corona is 1%. If everyone got infected with no intervention, 1% of the 330million people in America is 3.3 million deaths. The approach you're advocating is the same as condemning millions of people to death. It's genocide by apathy.
"If everyone got infected with no intervention" is the premise you're using, and I'd argue that premise would literally never happen. For multiple reasons, the main two being:

1- Not every single person will catch it.
2- There WILL be intervention

So this is a moot theory.


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We're at almost 300k deaths now, but it would have been a much higher number without the public health interventions. More people would have caught the virus and more people would have died.
This is by definition opinion. "Woulda coulda shoulda". All THEORY. Even if you argue it's not, I'd just use the same logic and argue the deaths due to financial hardship/suicide/depression spurred on by lockdowns and shutdowns would change as well, arguably balancing out the deaths.

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You can't only keep elderly people at home because people who aren't at risk are still carriers. You can't isolate at risks populations 100% because they generally need care. You would also need to isolate caretakers. But if caretakers are mixing with general population with widespread community infections, you're going to end up killing the elderly anyway.
Again, with this VERY logic, locking down EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING also has the same issues as locking down just a portion of the population. I'd argue locking down everyone causes MORE ISSUES than locking down a few. You can't in one breath say "LOCK DOWN EVERYTHING AND STAY HOME" and then when someone says, "Well, why just the people at risk stay home?" ... your rebuttal cant be "WELL YOU CANT LOCK THEM DOWN 100% BECAUSE _____". The contradiction doesn't reveal itself to you?


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Also, deaths and health complications AREN'T limited to the elderly. A lot of it is luck of the draw. If you get a bad case you can die or have permanent disability even if you're young and considered "healthy".
And if I go driving, I can get hit by a car, or struck by lightning, or have a heart attack etc... All more likely scenarios than catching covid and dying from it. Should I stop driving and going outside because of a fear of death, which can happen at any moment for any reason?

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Not to mention hospital capacity. We're maxed out now with the interventions that have been put in place. When you run out of hospital capacity completely death rates will go up across the board for covid/non-covid because you can no longer keep up with treating preventable disease.
This is pure propaganda. There may be some hospitals that are at capacity, but I doubt it's the majority, and it certainly isnt ALL. I literally have contacted every doctor/medical professional I know in my circles and inquired about this and more, and saw my local hospital with my own eyes and asked further.

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The pandemic will end when we get to population immunity. This can either happen by getting exposed to the virus, getting antibodies from blood plasma, or getting one of the vaccines. Depending on what mix of those options we end up with more/fewer people will die, and it will end sooner/later. All of this stuff is scientifically predictable at this point.
Which is exactly why there are thousands of doctors across the world that agree that LOCKING DOWN is the opposite of what we need to do if herd immunity is the goal. Some argue we've already likely reached that point or are already close.

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Also for the record, I'm not blindly pro-vaccine or pro-lockdown. I'm personally hesitant to take a vaccine where there have been no studies of long term side effects. Also only think lockdowns are needed in places where hospital capacity is an issue. Long term you have to keep the economy going or a lot more people will die from poverty and starvation. But I'm also not going to ignore the fact that some level of intervention needs to be taken to prevent the worse case of deaths.
Would you agree that in whichever case, the action that causes LEAST deaths should likely be the course of action?

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Masks and masks mandates are proven effective at lowering spread and keeping deaths down. The vaccine will slow down the community spread for the people who are willing to take it. It will be a while before any of us have access to it anyway. We only ordered 50million doses through Feb, so that's only 25million people getting the vaccine (roughly 1 of 13 Americans)
A rushed vaccine is not in the public's best interest. Indemnifying all vaccine manufacturers against all liability is also not in the public's best interest. And I'd be interested in seeing and reading the studies of "masks and mask mandates being PROVEN to lower the spread and keep deaths down". Do you even know how they formulate these studies? Who conducts them and who funds them? What areas of the country/world they specify? How they measure their metrics? All the variables they consider? Or did you just see a headline or hear it on the news?
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Old 12-11-2020, 05:43 PM   #46
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The vaccine is going to start being administered here as early as next week.
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Old 12-11-2020, 06:36 PM   #47
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I'm not going to go back and forth point by point. None of what I said in that post is theoretical.

Anything I said I can find peer reviewed scientific research to back it up. If you're really interested, give me a bullet list of questions and I will pinpoint facts for you.

But the appearance at this point is that you've bought into your point of view and you're certain your right. I'm happy to entertain legitimate curiosity, but if you just want to argue, I don't actually care enough to convince you.

We live in a world where people cling to the "facts" advocated by their partisan side. I don't mind passing on what I know, but I'm just one person, I'm not going to take responsibility for educating you.
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Old 12-11-2020, 06:45 PM   #48
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Please note I never proclaimed a stance on masks. But since you asked:

1- The way many people use it directly counters its supposed use, rendering it useless

2- It shouldn't be "mandatory", much like most health related issues

3- The logic behind wearing them and subsequently enforcing them is contradictory at best, ludicrous at worst. (Ex., So I MUST wear on my way to the table, then i can take it off? But, i should put it BACK ON in between bites? etc..)
bro you literally said there shouldn't be a mask mandate.. anyhow 1) even though people use it wrongly that's better than not using it AT ALL.. 2) health issues related to.. ? using a mask? also, not spitting facts here about why it shouldn't be "mandatory"

3) thats why you apply social distancing and proper hygiene measures too
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Old 12-11-2020, 06:49 PM   #49
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I'm not going to go back and forth point by point. None of what I said in that post is theoretical.

Anything I said I can find peer reviewed scientific research to back it up. If you're really interested, give me a bullet list of questions and I will pinpoint facts for you.

But the appearance at this point is that you've bought into your point of view and you're certain your right. I'm happy to entertain legitimate curiosity, but if you just want to argue, I don't actually care enough to convince you.

We live in a world where people cling to the "facts" advocated by their partisan side. I don't mind passing on what I know, but I'm just one person, I'm not going to take responsibility for educating you.
Cool. Let me know if you take that vaccine and i'm also upping this thread if/when vaccines become mandatory for 'normal life'.
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Old 12-11-2020, 07:01 PM   #50
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bro you literally said there shouldn't be a mask mandate.. anyhow 1) even though people use it wrongly that's better than not using it AT ALL.. 2) health issues related to.. ? using a mask? also, not spitting facts here about why it shouldn't be "mandatory"

3) thats why you apply social distancing and proper hygiene measures too
You asked why I think the "mandate is doing no good" , when I didn't say that. I said there shouldn't be a mandate. That's not the same thing. I don't think there should be a mandate, I think it should be a choice.

I think the incorrect use of the mask actually worsens the possibility of other diseases that spread on surfaces. Think about it, do you generally touch your face/head MORE or LESS while wearing the mask. Even if you ONLY factor in taking it on or off, the answer is more. Never mind adjusting it a million times. That's just common sense.

Here's one of the MANY articles that outline the same
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...e-masks-163228

2/3 health related issues regarding anything, are you dense? it's your choice what medical procedures get done to you, there's never been a mandated vaccine in history. It's an experimental product. LOL @ you thinking any human anywhere needs to argue why "forcing an experimental vaccine into me against my will" is a bad thing. Fuck outta here you trollin
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Old 12-11-2020, 07:09 PM   #51
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Cool. Let me know if you take that vaccine and i'm also upping this thread if/when vaccines become mandatory for 'normal life'.
Tbh, I'm probably going to take one of the non mRNA based vaccines. mRNA is supposed to be harmless but I don't really believe in being a guinea pig for first generation technology.

There's a proposal in Congress to incentivize vaccinations by attaching them to a stimulus payment. Biden administration is going to be committed to pushing people to take vaccines, so for better or worse a large % of Americans will take them. Pretty much can only hope it's safe.

At least it's better than the Russian "vaccine" where you're not supposed to drink for two months after taking it.

Realistically it will probably become mandatory to show proof of vaccination to participate in the "new" normal once the vaccine is widespread. If you want to go to events etc, you'll have to prove you're not a carrier.
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Old 12-11-2020, 07:15 PM   #52
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Coop is a legitimate fucking retard. Stop posting you pseudo-intellectual clown. Paragraph ass boy
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Old 12-11-2020, 07:16 PM   #53
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You asked why I think the "mandate is doing no good" , when I didn't say that. I said there shouldn't be a mandate. That's not the same thing. I don't think there should be a mandate, I think it should be a choice.

I think the incorrect use of the mask actually worsens the possibility of other diseases that spread on surfaces. Think about it, do you generally touch your face/head MORE or LESS while wearing the mask. Even if you ONLY factor in taking it on or off, the answer is more. Never mind adjusting it a million times. That's just common sense.

Here's one of the MANY articles that outline the same
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...e-masks-163228

2/3 health related issues regarding anything, are you dense? it's your choice what medical procedures get done to you, there's never been a mandated vaccine in history. It's an experimental product. LOL @ you thinking any human anywhere needs to argue why "forcing an experimental vaccine into me against my will" is a bad thing. Fuck outta here you trollin

yea.. assumed you thought it wasnt any good cuz u said there shouldn't be a mandate.. my point still stands tho, im sure there MIGHT be collateral effects due to wearing face masks, but the positive effects outweight any of those potential consequences

anyhow.. not gonna change ur mind bro, hope you don't get COVID cuz ur ass will be spreadin that shit around irresponsibly. also, I never said anything about vaccines, so Fuck outta here
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Old 12-11-2020, 07:24 PM   #54
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Tbh, I'm probably going to take one of the non mRNA based vaccines. mRNA is supposed to be harmless but I don't really believe in being a guinea pig for first generation technology.

There's a proposal in Congress to incentivize vaccinations by attaching them to a stimulus payment. Biden administration is going to be committed to pushing people to take vaccines, so for better or worse a large % of Americans will take them. Pretty much can only hope it's safe.

At least it's better than the Russian "vaccine" where you're not supposed to drink for two months after taking it.

Realistically it will probably become mandatory to show proof of vaccination to participate in the "new" normal once the vaccine is widespread. If you want to go to events etc, you'll have to prove you're not a carrier.
I think a combination of you don’t have to take the vaccine, but if you do you are financially incentivized... IS THE SOLUTION. But that’s too smart, it’ll never happen.
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Old 12-11-2020, 07:30 PM   #55
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Whether you disagree or agree with me, you probably base much of your argument on 1) what doctors/other experts say, and 2) your knowledge on the subject.

Well, I suggest you take a look at

World doctors alliance .com


Thousands of doctors, (with much more expert knowledge on the subject than you or I) agreeing on many things that go against what the mainstream & social media would have you believe. The front/only page is maybe a 5-10 minute read and sourced.
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Old 12-11-2020, 07:42 PM   #56
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I base most of my opinions on the reported data from the virus.

All the information necessary to form accurate conclusions is publicly available. I'm a MIT educated data scientist and I know what to look for and how to derive my own conclusions.

There are no reputed scientists with a background in virology who are advocating the things you mention in this thread.

world doctors alliance .com/ about / <- this page has the credentials of your "doctors"

I see general practitioners, dentists?, public speakers, and Republican Senator Scott Jensen.

This isn't a medical organization, it's a political one in masquerade.
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Old 12-11-2020, 07:52 PM   #57
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There are no reputed scientists with a background in virology who are advocating the things you mention in this thread.
Incorrect. Some of the sources linked are.

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I see general practitioners, dentists?, public speakers, and Republican Senator Scott Jensen.

This isn't a medical organization, it's a political one in masquerade.
And what are you talking about on the about page. They're all doctors? One with a PHD in immunology. And it consists of way more than just those on that page. REGARDLESS, the information that you skipped is way more important than "who's the head of the organization".

Not to mention, this is just a collective of medical professionals putting it together in a nice condensed fashion. It wouldn't take you a long search through social media or duckduckgo to find many doctors and viral experts who've come out and said something contrary to the national narrative.
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Old 12-11-2020, 08:09 PM   #58
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the information that you skipped is way more important than "who's the head of the organization".
Everyone has a bias when presenting information. If you don't know who is giving you the info you can't correct for that bias.

If you want to get a partisan opinion ask a politician.

If you want to get a scientific opinion ask a scientist. And all scientist are not equal. A virologist and an immunologist aren't the same thing. Look for someone who has studied corona viruses before (your immunologist hasn't).
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Old 12-11-2020, 08:17 PM   #59
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Everyone has a bias when presenting information. If you don't know who is giving you the info you can't correct for that bias.

If you want to get a partisan opinion ask a politician.

If you want to get a scientific opinion ask a scientist. And all scientist are not equal. A virologist and an immunologist aren't the same thing. Look for someone who has studied corona viruses before (your immunologist hasn't).
Fine. How about this Fauci guy saying “people don’t need to walk around wearing masks”. Is he qualified enough in your eyes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI
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Old 12-11-2020, 08:23 PM   #60
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