nicest pen in rap?

[Answer]

Originally Posted by Universe

Warning: I'm about to go full retard (Answer) here...

The difference is when I write long ass paragraphs, everything I say has a point and uses logical points with research to back it up. There's levels to this autism shit g

Originally Posted by Universe

Royce is dope af... no argument from me. He is more culturally aware than Em, finger on the pulse and all that. 'Book of Ryan' is an absolute masterpiece of an album - "Cocaine" being one of the best hip-hop songs in a long while. But it was a good song because the heart behind it; the story and the chorus and how REAL it was. Lyrically, it was meh at best. And I can say that because I'm a huge fan.

You're literally talking about lyricism and bringing up a song that's not even rap. I might as well be pulling out examples from Hailie's song.

Originally Posted by Eminem

Some days I sit starin' out the window
Watchin' this world pass me by
Sometimes I think there's nothin' to live for
I almost break down and cry

Yeah, fucking peak penmanship at it's finest.

Originally Posted by Universe

But when talking about best pen game, we gotta be talking LYRICS here, guys and gals. That's the debate, not who makes better music.

That's what we're talking about. Royce has 4 Bar Exam mixtapes and they're ALL been better than his albums and pure fucking lyrical clinics

Originally Posted by Universe

So, the reason why most of you are dismissing Em is because he doesn't really "say anything" anymore... Okay, fair point. Is he out of touch? Sure. He's the fucking Howard Hughes of rap; Probably pissing in mason jars while writing bars in his notepad, growing a 'weird' beard and forcing people to get into his toy airplane named The Spruce Goose at gunpoint... But the fact remains, lyrically, he almost never stumbles, if at all.

I've looked. I've listened.

See this is why your autism game is weak bro. You just wrote a whole paragraph and said absolutely nothing of substance. You provided NO evidence to back it up

Originally Posted by Universe

The people that think Em ain't shit also probably thought MGK won the battle they had because he said more catchy lines and personals... But lyrically he was NOWHERE NEAR Em on those tracks. MGK rhymed maybe 3 syllables once every 6 bars instead of his usual 1 or 2 syllables, and most of those were mistakes and/or broken up lazily by other words - he just got lucky in the cases where he did connect. The overall rhyme was "good for him", Em even admitted as much, but there's so much more that needs to go into a verse nowadays. Em was hitting with punchlines and rhyming entire bars, and elongating them out through rhyme schemes that created even more punchlines and rhyme schemes in the process. His rhymes give birth.

But people liked MGK's last two syllables better, so he "won"... Ain't that fucking precious.

So what's the point I'm making? Because no one is talking about MGK in the same breath as Eminem here, or anywhere.

How the FUCK are we having a discussion about Royce Da 5'9 vs. Eminem and you spend half your god damn post talking about MGK. MGK is not anywhere on the level of either of these dudes. MGK isn't even top 500 rappers. MGK is for middle class white kids whose parents won't let them listen to Tom MacDonald

That's like me saying Nas is better than Jay Z because Nas can clearly rap better than Milli Vanilli. I've seen ouch write more coherent arguments than this. You still haven't put forth ANY concrete examples.

Originally Posted by Universe

My point is that Em has always had an insane level of detail in his verses, and it often goes overlooked because we are used to it now.

Nothing gets overlooked. We're used to it because people just aren't impressed by random fucking multis in 2021. We all learned what multis were 17 years ago. Fucking soulja boy had Multis. They haven't been noteworthy since canibus rhymed "tom cruse mom's shoes"

Originally Posted by Universe

Even on 'Relapse' where he had absolutely ZERO to say and even less punchlines, he still was almost flawless in multi's, rhyme schemes and syllable counts. Break down Royce's best verses - He will be off here and there in multi's because honestly he doesn't give a shit - Em does.

Let's look at "Underground", which is probably the best song on relapse.

Originally Posted by Eminem

Faggoty faggoty faggoty raggedy Ann and Andy
No, raggedy Andy and Andy
No it can't be, it can't be
Yes it can be
The fucking Antichrist is back, Danny
It's Satan in black satin panties

it's about on par with "just lose it"

Originally Posted by Eminem

Chubba-chubba-chubba-chubba-chubba-chubba-chubby
I don't have any lines to go right here, so chubba-Teletubby

or these gems from rap god

Originally Posted by Eminem

Backpack rap crap, yap-yap, yackety-yack

Originally Posted by Eminem

Uh, summa-lumma, dooma-lumma, you assumin' I'm a human

Like, this is the dude you're bigging up as a fucking lyrical genius. Dude just said faggoty 3 times and a bunch of bullshit that doesn't mean anything whatsoever

Originally Posted by Eminem

Found in the back of a van after the shoot for Vanity Fair
Hannah Montana prepare to elope with a can opener
And be cut open like cantaloupe on canopy beds

This dude rhymed "vanity fair" with "canopy beds". That's not hot, bro. That dude was struggling so hard to find a rhyme with "vanity fair" that he had to butcher the way that "fair" was pronounced to come up with something. Nothing is dope about that shit. And this is just one out of a million examples of him doing this stupid shit where he pronounces words like someone with a mental disability to force shit to rhyme. Him rhyming "oranges" and "syringes" comes to mind.

returning to "recovery"

Originally Posted by Eminem

Does a bird chirp, Lil Wayne slurps syrup till he burps / And smokes purp, does a word search / gets circles wrapped around him like / You do when I come through, I’d like you to remind yourself / Of what the fuck I can do when I’m on the mike

That doesn't even BEGIN to cover all the lyrically awful songs Eminem has made over the years (Fack, My First Single, Ass like that).

Eminem simply can't be the best lyricist of all time because the best lyricist of all time would NEVER have as many blatant examples of absolute trash lyrics as Eminem has throughout his catalogue. That's not to say Em doesn't have some good stuff from time to time, he's a GOOD lyricist. That doesn't mean he's anywhere the level you give him credit for being

Originally Posted by Universe

That's why you will rarely find a bar that doesn't connect in insane ways. His double entendres are the best in the business.

No, no they're not

Originally Posted by Eminem

when I’m not even at my harshest / you can still get roasted cause Marshall is not mellow.

Originally Posted by Eminem

Your booty is heavy doody like diarrhea

Originally Posted by Eminem

I’m swimmin’ in that Egyptian river, ’cause I’m in denial

Originally Posted by Eminem

Maybe that's why I'm always so bananas, I aPEEL to all those walks of life

Eminem has a good bar like 5 times out of every 100 punchlines. About 60 of those bars are just really average and forgettable and the other 35 are just straight up cringeworthy

Originally Posted by Universe

And his ability to keep a rhyme scheme going on for crazy amounts of time (sometimes an entire song, see 'Legacy' on MMLP 2) puts him in a league of his own.

See, this is how you write a supporting argument to your claim. You cite actual examples instead of just writing 10 paragraphs of pointless bullshit. I'm aware of legacy, and it's a good song. It doesn't make him the greatest lyricist of all time. Any reasonably good lyricist could do the same thing.

Eminem wrote 3 verses which is 48 lines off the same multi. Not gonna lie, that's impressive

Here's a topical piece I wrote, it's 50 lines off the same multi

So NOT ONLY did I write 2 more lines than Eminem did in that song, Eminem used a 4-syllable multi, the main rhyme is "Sky is falling".

That's inferior to my 50 bar piece that uses a 6-syllable multi.

Not to mention, Eminem butchered his 4 syllable multi

Originally Posted by Eminem

cryin' and sobbin'

- 5 syllables

Originally Posted by Eminem

eyeballed him

- 3 syllables

Originally Posted by Eminem

wired in my noggin

- 6 syllables

Originally Posted by Eminem

Brian Baldingers

- somehow he added 2 extra lines

Originally Posted by Eminem

Miami Dolphins

- 5 syllables

and a number of other examples where he downgraded to 3 syllables because he couldn't handle the difficulty of 4 syllables

not to mention this fucking gem

Originally Posted by Eminem

Suck a dick; the day you beat me, pigs'll fly out my ass
In a flyin' saucer full of Italian sausage

Meanwhile in that WHOLE song, Eminem arguably had like FIVE double entendres and none of them are good.

In my drop, I had about 45 punchlines and most of them were dope


So let's recap

Eminem:
48 lines off one multi
4 syllable multi
lots of errors and flaws execution of his multis
5 punchlines
all of them are ok

Me:
50 lines off one multi
6-syllable multi
no errors or flaws in the execution of my multis
45 punchlines
all of them are good or dope

and since Eminem is your vote for best lyricist, and the ONLY concrete evidence you're providing lyrically is "Legacy", and I clearly beat out Eminem in 5 out of 5 topics, and 4 of those aren't even REMOTELY subjective. It stands to reason that you should now believe that I am the greatest lyricist of all time.

I appreciate your words of encouragement

Originally Posted by Universe

That's what also sets him apart from Thought, who is technically sound as Em over an 100m dash ('Yah Yah'), but won't compete in a marathon.

Again, I've looked into this.

Yeah, you need concrete examples. Saying "it's true because I said so" doesn't work. That's how you end up like fucking Lars posting screenshots of his mom's bank account claiming it's his and saying, "it's true because I said so"

Originally Posted by Universe

But don't take my word for it, read it from the man himself.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nme...-2639098%3famp

Nowhere in this source does Royce EVER claim Eminem is better, or even AS good as Royce. All it says is someone called him a culture vulture and Royce stepped up to defend his friend by saying

Originally Posted by Royce Da 5'9

You ain’t talking about a motherfucker that just rhymes words. Let’s get this shit right man, he’s a master at this.

also from your same source:

Originally Posted by Universe's source

Eminem said whenever he gets on a record with you or Crook he gets anxiety because you’re such elite MCs

I'm sure Royce isn't going to shit on Em because Em IS a good rapper, an ok lyricist, and Royce's close friend. Not to mention Royce has a financial interest in not talking shit about Em, because he makes more money with Em's support than he does without it.

but don't take my word for it, read it from the man himself:

Originally Posted by Royce Da 5'9

Eminem himself will tell you I'm the only nigga livin'
That done ever spanked him on the same record with him

Originally Posted by Universe

So is Em in the debate for best ever? Absolutely. Is he as good as he was in connecting with his audience? Not even close. Is he as good as he was lyrically? Guys, he's way better.

Is Royce & Black Thought dope? Absolutely.

More filler bullshit that doesn't actually mean anything or provide support for your argument

Originally Posted by Universe

But are they 'hide lyrics inside other lyrics like trap doors for people to find later', dope? Nope

Of course they are, Eminem didn't invent punchlines. Royce isn't even a punchline rapper like that. But when it comes to rhymeschemes and flow he runs circles around Eminem

Originally Posted by Universe

Do they have Rain Man's attention to detail when he's counting fallen toothpicks on a dirty diner floor and applying that to syllable counts?

Nope.

You just have this weirdly romanticized view of Eminem's lyrics being better than they are. I've already pointed at multiple examples that prove Eminem drops flawed rhymes ALL the time. That's how proofs work in logic and math, you have to actually prove that it's the case for all things that he's got "rain man attention to detail" and it only takes one concrete example to prove that's not true.

Originally Posted by Universe

There's levels to this shit... But unfortunately, the artist is only as good as the audiences ability to perceive what's being said. As Heath Ledger's Joker famously put it, "I'm not a monster... I'm just ahead of the curve."

It's okay to admit that the curve might just take you right back to where you started.

Again, more of you saying absolutely nothing at all

[kungfugrip]

Eminem is the GOAT rapper the same way I'm the GOAT text battler

There was a glimmer there, and he had potential, but there's zero consistency and his legacy is highly overrated

[Fracture]

Weird how so many of the elite rappers in thr game consider eminem one of the best ever but a bunch of white kids who likely were influenced by him at 1 time to try and write think he sucks

[Universe]

Originally Posted by Fracture

Weird how so many of the elite rappers in thr game consider eminem one of the best ever but a bunch of white kids who likely were influenced by him at 1 time to try and write think he sucks

Originally Posted by Universe

It's okay to admit that the curve might just take you right back to where you started.

Stanswer declaring himself better than Eminem was definitely the only morsel of enjoyment I got out of that highly disappointing, Risperdal-fuelled rebuttal.

What a letdown. I liked you better when you ignored me.

[Answer]

You’ve offered no mathematic evidence to the contrary, sir

My evidence is clear

50 > 48
6 > 4
45 > 5

And you can count up all the syllables and see clearly that mine all match perfectly at 6 syllables and his do not. He has 3, he has 5, he’s all over the place.

You’ve provided one citation from Eminem. None of this is subjective “opinion”, these are numbers. My numbers are higher than Eminem’s.

That’s why your argument fails. I’ve proven this with logic, and you’re just speculating based off of nothing but your gut with nothing to show for it

[Destroyer]

this is just a dumb fucking conversation
you can make arguments for GOAT sports players. because you have stats. it’s pretty easy to quantify who the GOAT is.
this is music which is entirely subjective. there’s no “stats” to look at short
of album sales and if that’s the criteria, then eminem wins.
there is no criteria though as to who’s art is better than another aside from one’s own subjective opinion. so, there can be no right or wrong answer and therefore back to my original “this conversation is fucking dumb” assertion.

[Cereal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4cRrKXwAP4

[Answer]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

this is just a dumb fucking conversation
you can make arguments for GOAT sports players. because you have stats. it’s pretty easy to quantify who the GOAT is.
this is music which is entirely subjective. there’s no “stats” to look at short
of album sales and if that’s the criteria, then eminem wins.
there is no criteria though as to who’s art is better than another aside from one’s own subjective opinion. so, there can be no right or wrong answer and therefore back to my original “this conversation is fucking dumb” assertion.

Disagree. We’re not talking about music, we’re talking about lyricism. As universe stated, it’s purely about the writing and not about song-making. Album sales are irrelevant

What are the aspects of writing?

Multisyllabic writing - number of syllables being used, it is more difficult to create rhymes with longer multis. Of course, it is. Because there are more sentences/words in the English language that end with with the rhyme, “dope” than there are sentences/phrases that end with the rhyme “sky is falling”

And because there are less sentences to choose from, it’s more difficult. There was an author who wrote an entire book without the letter “e” (the most common letter in the English language). This was obviously very difficult to do because it greatly limits the number of words you can use and sentences you can make.

If you don’t believe me, just try to write a 200 word short story or topical without using the letter “e”. Only by actually trying this can you empathize with my point. It’s not that I don’t think you CAN do it, you’re simply vastly underestimating the difficulty of it, which is easy to do for people who don’t challenge themselves. It’s easy for me to think I can run 15 km but it’s another thing to actually go out and do it.

When you loosen your restrictions, as eminem does when he breaks from using 4 syllables to use 3 syllables or 5 syllables, you’re increasing the number of words and phrases you can use. That’s like writing a book with no “e’s” and saying “eh maybe I’ll have SOME words that have the letter e”

And he does this even more-so when he allows himself to use words that don’t even rhyme altogether like him rhyming “fair” with “beds”

Punchlines/double entendres - it’s one thing to write a punchline, but it’s another thing to reverse-engineer a punchline from a rhyme. Not only are you coming up with a punchline, but you’re also constrained by the limitation of not being able to write words with the letter “e”

Do you disagree that writing 45 punchlines with that constraint is more difficult than writing 5 with that constraint? I don’t see how you believe that to be the case.

I’m really disappointed in you, des. You’re one of the few who I thought was smarter than this.

[Fracture]

So youre saying that your 500 word couplets are on a diff level than eminems best?

[Answer]

Originally Posted by Fracture

So youre saying that your 500 word couplets are on a diff level than eminems best?

Considering we’re talking about a 50-line verse where everything rhymes, I don’t think you even know what the word “couplet” means, frac.

[Fracture]

Are you going to sit here and lie to my face that.your bars arent the length of forever and ever

[Destroyer]

lmao @ answer’s just straight uncut pretentiousness
oh, “best lyricism” isn’t subjective because similes
eat a fat dick

[Fracture]

Let me speak to Culture

[Fracture]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

lmao @ answer’s just straight uncut pretentiousness
oh, “best lyricism” isn’t subjective because similes
eat a fat dick

Lmao

[Answer]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

lmao @ answer’s just straight uncut pretentiousness
oh, “best lyricism” isn’t subjective because similes
eat a fat dick

You’ve offered nothing objective, des. This is theist level thinking

[Destroyer]

there’s no objectivity to be had here
you’re analyzing someone else’s shit to determine value
the value is only true for you, yourself
tell me why moby dick is better than the catcher in the rye now because of grammar and noun count

[Answer]

Originally Posted by Fracture

Are you going to sit here and lie to my face that.your bars arent the length of forever and ever

Eminem's longest bars in rap god:

So I wanna make sure somewhere in this chicken scratch I scribble and doodle enough rhymes
To maybe try to help get some people through tough times, but I gotta keep a few punchlines


My longest bars in that piece:

been fightin over capital since they set up an embassy @ the center of tel aviv
countin checks from the sheep got ‘em dead asleep, execs invested in feta cheese



So even if bar length had anything to do with lyricism, Eminem's longest bars are longer than my own. Meanwhile I had 2 internal rhymes and he had 1

[UserName]

Originally Posted by Fracture

Let me speak to Culture

Too soon.

[Fracture]

So youre not going to acknowledge that rap god was entirely dependant on a beat build? You cant cherry pick certain bars from rap god without taking the entire song into consideration.

[Fracture]

And even if you disagree with what i just said its proof that its subjective. Basically what destroyer is trying to say