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Old 01-09-2019, 08:18 AM   #21
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Nah I get what your sayin' bro...Sorry, like I made a decision to get a parent from my child's school out of a domestic violence relationship (& apparently she is now, which is great if that's the case) only to be completely shut out by her...If I had chosen not to I wouldn't of not only been hurt but would of regretted not steppin' in...That's like A plus B yes?
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:38 AM   #22
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@Exis tbph I think we're talking about something else now and you lost me lol

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Originally Posted by veritas View Post
Sharp,

I have much to say about this. Would you allow it?
Of course
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Wouldn’t you simply be able to up and move to a completely new environment and thereby change your external input sources thus changing anything that may have been predetermined by biological and internal factors? I see the argument that this very choice would also be predetermined, but... what if the choice was made simply to disprove your argument? What if it was made again and again? I think free will lies in that area where we legitimately could make decisions like this. I think we do all the time.
The crux of this argument is that you can't control factors that influence that decision. I still think you could decide to change your environment, but the reasons why you decide to do so are already in place. Even if you're doing this to disprove my argument, you're making the move to disprove my argument because of who you are.

I didn't even wanna use the word 'predetermined' since it sounds like we don't have a choice. I think we can choose freely, but everything that would lead you to that choice is either already done or out of your control.

It's really a dumb little semantic gripe
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:42 AM   #23
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Not really though. It’s the crux of the argument of if we, in fact, do possess free will.
I feel like we do, even if I’m unprepared to make a good argument why
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:43 AM   #24
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I have figured out how to rectify Gods all knowing with human free will...and it is the deepest tenet of my remember the future tagline sir. Are you open to discussion of this?
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:24 AM   #25
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Not really though. It’s the crux of the argument of if we, in fact, do possess free will.
I feel like we do, even if I’m unprepared to make a good argument why
I think we'd agree though. I believe we have free will and the ability to make our own decisions, but every part of the equation is already in place. it's not like we're truly choosing something rather than willingly following a natural progression

Like, if you respond to this post is kind of determined by your already existing qualities/experiences and how they influence you. It's really just a semantic thing

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I have figured out how to rectify Gods all knowing with human free will...and it is the deepest tenet of my remember the future tagline sir. Are you open to discussion of this?
Sure, I don't know how much I can offer a discussion since I'm theorizing as an atheist language nazi, but I'd at least like to hear it
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:27 AM   #26
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I have figured out how to rectify Gods all knowing with human free will...and it is the deepest tenet of my remember the future tagline sir. Are you open to discussion of this?
You have figured out the answer to one of the biggest conundrums in Christianity?

I, for one, am eager to know what you have come up with.

I've come across suggestions before which I decided did not make a lot of sense.
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:40 AM   #27
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Wouldn’t you simply be able to up and move to a completely new environment and thereby change your external input sources thus changing anything that may have been predetermined by biological and internal factors? I see the argument that this very choice would also be predetermined, but... what if the choice was made simply to disprove your argument? What if it was made again and again? I think free will lies in that area where we legitimately could make decisions like this. I think we do all the time.
This is why the theory is baseless in the first place. Any argument against it can be “well, THAT is part of it being predetermined”. There’s no supporting evidence and it comes off as an excuse maker.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:15 AM   #28
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You have figured out the answer to one of the biggest conundrums in Christianity?

I, for one, am eager to know what you have come up with.

I've come across suggestions before which I decided did not make a lot of sense.
word.....I was reading DA Carson talk about Compatiblism and It was tough to swallow....though Im not sure I disagree with it
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Not saying being drunk doesn’t mess up you reasoning. I’m turning 20 soon so I haven’t had a drink ever.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:57 AM   #29
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:01 PM   #30
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Diode gets me

I feel like you're missing the point

Every determining factor in any of those is based on stuff that has already happened or already set about you. You can't really have an effect on anything that you control because your reasons for acting a certain way are based on all that

Like I've been saying, it's semantics



Not really talking destiny. Just saying when you make a decision and choose A instead of B, everything that informed your decision to pick A is something you can't control (like your personality and past experiences)

Really it's just a petty issue with how the phrase 'free will' is interpreted
I’d argue all those outside factors effect our emotional side, not our rational one, or our logical one(we don’t think differently, in terms of logic, just that we think with less logical thought), so we still choose are actions, because we act through will not passion. If you act off of passion and not logic, I suppose you could say you didn’t “choose” what you based your action on, but you still decided to act how you did. “Free-will” is just being able to choose your actions by yourself. If not the universe is deterministic, which can’t be true because we have reason.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:02 PM   #31
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I have figured out how to rectify Gods all knowing with human free will...and it is the deepest tenet of my remember the future tagline sir. Are you open to discussion of this?
Pretty sure Thomas Aquinas did this too. No one really says that All-knowing beings contradict free will anymore.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:05 PM   #32
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oh an I thought the deterministic theory was already debunked in studies on identical and fraternal twins separated at birth

its nature vs nurture

there is intrinsic behavioral cognitive capabilities that are completely hereditary and ignore external stimuli as evidenced in the studies on the twins who were raised in completely separate environments and essentially became the same people
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My dad once had like 4 beers at a family reunion, and drove us home better than my mom usually drives.
Not saying being drunk doesn’t mess up you reasoning. I’m turning 20 soon so I haven’t had a drink ever.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:38 PM   #33
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oh an I thought the deterministic theory was already debunked in studies on identical and fraternal twins separated at birth

its nature vs nurture

there is intrinsic behavioral cognitive capabilities that are completely hereditary and ignore external stimuli as evidenced in the studies on the twins who were raised in completely separate environments and essentially became the same people
Determinism is that our actions our determined, it says nothing about what the determiner is.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:45 PM   #34
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thanks for the definition from the fagot taking highschool philosophy courses

whatever the fuck form of determinism fagot sharp is arguing in the OP k thanks pussy
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My dad once had like 4 beers at a family reunion, and drove us home better than my mom usually drives.
Not saying being drunk doesn’t mess up you reasoning. I’m turning 20 soon so I haven’t had a drink ever.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:50 PM   #35
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Guys,

Work has become super busy. I have not forgotten this. I do not want to rush my words. I will be back.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:45 PM   #36
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I’d argue all those outside factors effect our emotional side, not our rational one, or our logical one(we don’t think differently, in terms of logic, just that we think with less logical thought), so we still choose are actions, because we act through will not passion. If you act off of passion and not logic, I suppose you could say you didn’t “choose” what you based your action on, but you still decided to act how you did. “Free-will” is just being able to choose your actions by yourself. If not the universe is deterministic, which can’t be true because we have reason.
But it's not deterministic. Think of what goes on when making a decision - every variable is already in place and your choice isn't so much a choice as it is a reflection of that

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oh an I thought the deterministic theory was already debunked in studies on identical and fraternal twins separated at birth

its nature vs nurture

there is intrinsic behavioral cognitive capabilities that are completely hereditary and ignore external stimuli as evidenced in the studies on the twins who were raised in completely separate environments and essentially became the same people
I'm a bad explainer, but I'm not subscribed to any sort of determinism. It's just nature + nurture are things that are beyond your control
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:56 PM   #37
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de·ter·min·ism.
.

[dəˈtərməˌnizəm]







NOUN


philosophy
.


the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
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My dad once had like 4 beers at a family reunion, and drove us home better than my mom usually drives.
Not saying being drunk doesn’t mess up you reasoning. I’m turning 20 soon so I haven’t had a drink ever.
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:10 PM   #38
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de·ter·min·ism.
.

[dəˈtərməˌnizəm]







NOUN


philosophy
.


the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
I too have googled it. I'm saying I belive in free will, but since everything that would lead us to our decisions is beyond our control, truly 'free' will is almost a misnomer
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:15 PM   #39
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but yea I don't think the idea that our genetics and social constructs shape us takes away the functionality of free will. in a society of however many billion people operating with conscious and unconscious cognitive processes that we barely even understand, the theory over simplifies an irreducibly complex system.

basically youd have to say if we reset the earth to day one that every single event would occur the same leading up to the present.....I don't think our minds are so simply considered to agree with this
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My dad once had like 4 beers at a family reunion, and drove us home better than my mom usually drives.
Not saying being drunk doesn’t mess up you reasoning. I’m turning 20 soon so I haven’t had a drink ever.
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:18 PM   #40
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I too have googled it. I'm saying I belive in free will, but since everything that would lead us to our decisions is beyond our control, truly 'free' will is almost a misnomer
so what should we call it instead... kinda free will...
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My dad once had like 4 beers at a family reunion, and drove us home better than my mom usually drives.
Not saying being drunk doesn’t mess up you reasoning. I’m turning 20 soon so I haven’t had a drink ever.
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