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Old 06-18-2018, 03:20 PM   #321
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Diode shhhhh I think they're going to come to an agreement any post now.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:29 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Destroyer View Post
You know the answer
And we can go all the way back
I don’t need to explain the origins of life to you
yes, you do. What is the origin of life? Because obviously God did not create it.
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The cerebral assassin, the molder of minds, the Omni potent being. Time transcending traveler, wisdom incarnate. Veritas needs no intro but I guess I have to. He’s not know in the battling world but who doesn’t know veritas? The guy us always original and if you pay attention to his bars, dude brings the heat.. The gawd.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:29 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by PancakeBrah View Post
Diode shhhhh I think they're going to come to an agreement any post now.
vintage.
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Originally Posted by Consensus
The cerebral assassin, the molder of minds, the Omni potent being. Time transcending traveler, wisdom incarnate. Veritas needs no intro but I guess I have to. He’s not know in the battling world but who doesn’t know veritas? The guy us always original and if you pay attention to his bars, dude brings the heat.. The gawd.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:34 PM   #324
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No, the onus is on you to prove that god did
I don’t know the answer
What I’m saying, is neither do you
So stop acting as if you do, simply because in your mind, there’s two options and one seems to be more plausible than the other.
You have concrete proof of neither.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:57 PM   #325
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So when I say both are based on faith you say no. Now you say yes!?

Hdowjerjfisiowjejjedisiwowjendndkaoaoirufjfndenkso sow

This is why we can’t have nice things. You and I.

Go back and read the posts lollllllll
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Originally Posted by Consensus
The cerebral assassin, the molder of minds, the Omni potent being. Time transcending traveler, wisdom incarnate. Veritas needs no intro but I guess I have to. He’s not know in the battling world but who doesn’t know veritas? The guy us always original and if you pay attention to his bars, dude brings the heat.. The gawd.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:58 PM   #326
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Stop.
I didn’t say no. I said one was mundane and the other a huge theological leap
It’s cool that you’re closed off to reason, man
You must remain so to avoid a shattered world view
I get it
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:52 PM   #327
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17 pages and almost 2k views.

Impressive.
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:55 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Destroyer View Post
Stop.
I didn’t say no. I said one was mundane and the other a huge theological leap
It’s cool that you’re closed off to reason, man
You must remain so to avoid a shattered world view
I get it
No. Make up your mind. Stop flip flopping.


We have two choices to explain our existence. God made us or we evolved from lesser genetic beings randomly over time.

Both require faith to believe.

Fair? Or not fair?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Consensus
The cerebral assassin, the molder of minds, the Omni potent being. Time transcending traveler, wisdom incarnate. Veritas needs no intro but I guess I have to. He’s not know in the battling world but who doesn’t know veritas? The guy us always original and if you pay attention to his bars, dude brings the heat.. The gawd.
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:58 PM   #329
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I’m not going to engage with you on the level of your own flawed reason, V
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:05 PM   #330
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I will be here waiting.
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Originally Posted by Consensus
The cerebral assassin, the molder of minds, the Omni potent being. Time transcending traveler, wisdom incarnate. Veritas needs no intro but I guess I have to. He’s not know in the battling world but who doesn’t know veritas? The guy us always original and if you pay attention to his bars, dude brings the heat.. The gawd.
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:27 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by sraL View Post
The point I was getting at with Pontius Pilate is that same objection would rule out just about anyone from ancient history. The reality is that most historical figures, whether ancient or modern, just don't write much about themselves.

That's the problem when it comes to discussions like these. People who question the historicity of Jesus apply criteria that are far more demanding that the criteria normally used in evaluating ancient history. "Where are the first-hand accounts?" they demand (of which I'd argue that there are some, but that's ultimately beside the point). "Why weren't any of these accounts written during his lifetime?" -- again, a criterion that historians do not require. "Why didn't he personally write about himself?" and so forth, and so on.

No, there's not very much evidence. But then, there's not very much evidence for any individual who lived that long ago.

You're willing to believe the narrative you want to believe while almost completely discounting the narrative you don't want to believe - when both of them lack in physical evidence.
word. the problem lies in the fact that the sole reason jesus is spoken of is because of a religious text. not because of any historical writings. if the new testament was never written, no one would remark on a common jewish name mentioned in passing. even if they referred to him as "the messiah" since there was plenty of false claimants to the title, who had false followings.

so while i agree with the sentiment, that argument is only brought up from a defensive stance, because the bible is being "attacked".

but the whole argument falls apart when you realize that these other ancient figures we scrutinize, are written of in depth outside of any religious texts, across different cultures. even someone as unimportant to the grand scheme of politics of the time as pontius pilate.
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:08 PM   #332
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word. the problem lies in the fact that the sole reason jesus is spoken of is because of a religious text. not because of any historical writings. if the new testament was never written, no one would remark on a common jewish name mentioned in passing. even if they referred to him as "the messiah" since there was plenty of false claimants to the title, who had false followings.

so while i agree with the sentiment, that argument is only brought up from a defensive stance, because the bible is being "attacked".

but the whole argument falls apart when you realize that these other ancient figures we scrutinize, are written of in depth outside of any religious texts, across different cultures. even someone as unimportant to the grand scheme of politics of the time as pontius pilate.
LOL I'm not religious, though, I've no reason to be defensive about the Bible being attacked?

I just find it odd you're so adamant a Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist when - to me at least - the circumstantial evidence is more than enough to suggest he probably did.

Most of Jesus' disciples were uneducated fishermen and whatnot, with a few notable exceptions. Probably very few of them could read. Many of his sayings and teachings, such as the beatitudes and parables, are designed to be easy to remember.

I'll also bet (but don't know for a fact) that writing tools -- styluses and scrolls or whatever they used -- were prohibitively expensive and impractable for an itinerant preacher to carry around with him.

One common hpothothesis is that indeed, the sayings and preachings of Christ were written down during Jesus's life. These writings are called "Q" (for Quelle, German for Source). (There is also the "TDH" hypothesis, too, but it still has Q).

However, these collected sayings were just that- no history, "Jesus did this, here on this day" and so forth. Just stuff like the Sermon on the Mount (which was likely several Sermons).

So, they did "write something down" before any of the Gospels were written.

As a member of the sub-peasant artsan class of Galilee, Jesus would have been almost certainly illiterate unless he got some kind of formal scribal or rabbinical training as an adult.

Even if he had been able to write something down, he was preaching to non-literate peasants and used teaching techniques which are amenable to oral transmission (aphorisms and parables which are substantively easy to remember and repeat, rather than long-winded discourses, which are not).

According to New Testamant scholar, John Crossan, an estimated 95-98% of the Palestinian state was illiterate during the time of Jesus.

Suppose Jesus HAD written something down: then what would he do with it? He couldn't have sent it to a book publisher or newspaper editor, or put it up on his web page. If he wanted multiple copies, he or his followers would have had to copy them out by hand. And then who would they have given them to? Passing around copies of important writings only really became practical once Christian communities, like the ones Paul wrote to, sprang up.

In those days, if you wanted to spread a message and get it to as many people as possible (many of whom were illiterate), it would have been easier to do it orally, by word of mouth. And back in the days before printing and widespread literacy, people were better at remembering things and passing them along orally.

We have the names of rather a lot of Roman-era people who were known as teachers or other public figures. Rabbis, governors, sages. How many of them wrote anything that survives?

I think you will find that the answer is: surprisingly few. Where are the writings of Socrates?
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:10 PM   #333
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Well played
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Consensus
The cerebral assassin, the molder of minds, the Omni potent being. Time transcending traveler, wisdom incarnate. Veritas needs no intro but I guess I have to. He’s not know in the battling world but who doesn’t know veritas? The guy us always original and if you pay attention to his bars, dude brings the heat.. The gawd.
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:25 PM   #334
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The writings of Socrates don’t matter. His principles are sound and someone came up with them. It’s the ideas that are important, not the authorship.
It’s a little different with the Bible when the authorship is the importance, not the ideas
I mean no atheist has a problem with the shit the Bible says that they also agree to be moral, all of the truly solid moral messages predate the Bible anyway
It’s the immoral shit spread throughout that presents a problem
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:10 PM   #335
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LOL I'm not religious, though, I've no reason to be defensive about the Bible being attacked?

I just find it odd you're so adamant a Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist when - to me at least - the circumstantial evidence is more than enough to suggest he probably did.

Most of Jesus' disciples were uneducated fishermen and whatnot, with a few notable exceptions. Probably very few of them could read. Many of his sayings and teachings, such as the beatitudes and parables, are designed to be easy to remember.

I'll also bet (but don't know for a fact) that writing tools -- styluses and scrolls or whatever they used -- were prohibitively expensive and impractable for an itinerant preacher to carry around with him.

One common hpothothesis is that indeed, the sayings and preachings of Christ were written down during Jesus's life. These writings are called "Q" (for Quelle, German for Source). (There is also the "TDH" hypothesis, too, but it still has Q).

However, these collected sayings were just that- no history, "Jesus did this, here on this day" and so forth. Just stuff like the Sermon on the Mount (which was likely several Sermons).

So, they did "write something down" before any of the Gospels were written.

As a member of the sub-peasant artsan class of Galilee, Jesus would have been almost certainly illiterate unless he got some kind of formal scribal or rabbinical training as an adult.

Even if he had been able to write something down, he was preaching to non-literate peasants and used teaching techniques which are amenable to oral transmission (aphorisms and parables which are substantively easy to remember and repeat, rather than long-winded discourses, which are not).

According to New Testamant scholar, John Crossan, an estimated 95-98% of the Palestinian state was illiterate during the time of Jesus.

Suppose Jesus HAD written something down: then what would he do with it? He couldn't have sent it to a book publisher or newspaper editor, or put it up on his web page. If he wanted multiple copies, he or his followers would have had to copy them out by hand. And then who would they have given them to? Passing around copies of important writings only really became practical once Christian communities, like the ones Paul wrote to, sprang up.

In those days, if you wanted to spread a message and get it to as many people as possible (many of whom were illiterate), it would have been easier to do it orally, by word of mouth. And back in the days before printing and widespread literacy, people were better at remembering things and passing them along orally.

We have the names of rather a lot of Roman-era people who were known as teachers or other public figures. Rabbis, governors, sages. How many of them wrote anything that survives?

I think you will find that the answer is: surprisingly few. Where are the writings of Socrates?
a couple things here. firstly, im stating that evidence doesn't suggest that jesus existed, to which your counter is, what evidence would exist? which i don't disagree with. i just can't make the logical leap that he did exist because there isn't evidence of his existence.

my problem with your second point is moreso you not understanding timelines in antiquity. you talk about roman era people and mention socrates. rome was a backwater city state in italy during socrates' lifetime, if he existed. im not going to debate his existence because ancient greece was never what piqued my interest, i've dabbled in researching it, but never from a philosophical standpoint, always a historical one. i'm mainly a fan of military history. which is why i've read herodotus and xenophons works. i've never read platos works. that type of stuff doesn't interest me.

my main point of study in the ancient world is the roman republic from the punic wars through to the death of caesar. i've looked into alot of the early roman empire, augustus to trajan pretty much, but it was already too well oiled a machine to keep me interested. and i've looked into pre punic wars rome as well, all the way from the mythical beginning, but around the time of the wars with carthage is when they turned the corner and became most interesting to me.

but anyways when you speak of people in antiquity in the same breath as jesus like they are hard to prove their existence, i can't help but scoff at it because i read accounts of people from different nations in periods prior to, during and after jesus' existence. pretty much everything of importance that has ever happened has been passed down to us from multiple sources, but again these are people of importance. jesus the mythical rabbi wasn't until after he was created.

but sure if you mention people who predate that time by centuries like socrates when the entire world was much less literate, and all the writings were colorful and full of nonsense you have a point. i just don't see that point as a proof of a mans existence.

i don't understand why this is so hard to understand.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:10 PM   #336
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doublepost
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:17 PM   #337
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The writings of Socrates don’t matter. His principles are sound and someone came up with them. It’s the ideas that are important, not the authorship.
It’s a little different with the Bible when the authorship is the importance, not the ideas
I mean no atheist has a problem with the shit the Bible says that they also agree to be moral, all of the truly solid moral messages predate the Bible anyway
It’s the immoral shit spread throughout that presents a problem
What immoral shit? Immoral to who?
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Originally Posted by Consensus
The cerebral assassin, the molder of minds, the Omni potent being. Time transcending traveler, wisdom incarnate. Veritas needs no intro but I guess I have to. He’s not know in the battling world but who doesn’t know veritas? The guy us always original and if you pay attention to his bars, dude brings the heat.. The gawd.
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:41 PM   #338
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Slavery is pretty immoral to everybody
Subjugation of women is pretty immoral
I personally think the idea of vicarious redemption which we discussed earlier is immoral
Child sacrifice is immoral
How many do I have to list?
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:46 PM   #339
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Contradiction.
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Originally Posted by Consensus
The cerebral assassin, the molder of minds, the Omni potent being. Time transcending traveler, wisdom incarnate. Veritas needs no intro but I guess I have to. He’s not know in the battling world but who doesn’t know veritas? The guy us always original and if you pay attention to his bars, dude brings the heat.. The gawd.
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:58 PM   #340
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Gatorade.
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