Clinton vs Trump, who would you vote for if it comes down to this?

[Mike Wrecka]

Walk through any part of NYC. Then tell me how much room we have here.

[Diode]

Originally Posted by Mike Wrecka

Walk through any part of NYC. Then tell me how much room we have here.

please tell me this is a joke.

this is a long con troll.

this has to be.

[Mike Wrecka]

You seem to be so out of touch with reality that I fear there is no reasoning with you.

Do you think it's possible that your success has shielded you from the atrocities I speak of? I'm sure all is peachy keen at your country club.

So many people in my family hAve been laid off from jobs and replaced by someone that doesn't speak English and will work for dirt cheap. They work for cheap because they live twenty to a house and just funnel money back to their family in Guatemala or whatever have you. They don't put down roots. They just steal jobs and then leave when they had their fill

[Witty]

Originally Posted by Mike Wrecka

You seem to be so out of touch with reality that I fear there is no reasoning with you.

Do you think it's possible that your success has shielded you from the atrocities I speak of? I'm sure all is peachy keen at your country club.

So many people in my family hAve been laid off from jobs and replaced by someone that doesn't speak English and will work for dirt cheap. They work for cheap because they live twenty to a house and just funnel money back to their family in Guatemala or whatever have you. They don't put down roots. They just steal jobs and then leave when they had their fill

That's capitalism, that's not the fault of the worker, that's the prerogative of the employer, that's who you should blame. The worker is just trying to survive. They also have the right to do whatever they want with their own money. They didn't 'steal' a thing, they were employed.

[Witty]

Originally Posted by Mike Wrecka

Walk through any part of NYC. Then tell me how much room we have here.

NYC = America?

I see.

The REFUGEES (not illegal immigrants, not asylum seekers) are spread across the United States, a nation in which there is PLENTY of room.

Also, America takes hardly any refugees compared to others nations, including nations really not very well off. They are running from wars America helped start, they are running FROM ISIS, who btw would rather they didn't as it doesn't suit their vision of their caliphate being a refuge for Muslims.

[Mike Wrecka]

Originally Posted by Witty

NYC = America?

I see.

.

Oh so you're suggesting that when people arrive in the USA we force them to live in unpopulated areas? Great idea. North Dakota guess who's coming over for dinner. Pablo and his 20 cousins and also Isis. Enjoy!

[Witty]

Originally Posted by Mike Wrecka

Oh so you're suggesting that when people arrive in the USA we force them to live in unpopulated areas? Great idea. North Dakota guess who's coming over for dinner. Pablo and his 20 cousins and also Isis. Enjoy!

Lmao you really need to do some research in to your country's refugee policy before you talk about it dude. They also have the strictest vetting out of all countries.

[Diode]

this is the classic misguided paradigm. myopic in nature. me, me, me.

blame the worker rather than the global hegemony that hires cheap labor and cheats our tax system.

it's hilariously delusional.

you've been gamed by your betters into loathing your peers and supporting their destructive ways.

congrats?

[Witty]

Immigrants don't pay taxes.
Immigrants pay taxes, in the form of income, property, sales, and taxes at the federal and state level. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998

In addition to the consumer spending of immigrant households, immigrants and their businesses contribute $162 billion in tax revenue to U.S. federal, state, and local governments. While it is true that immigrants remit billions of dollars a year to their home countries, this is one of the most targeted and effective forms of direct foreign investment.

The largest wave of immigration to the U.S. since the early 1900s coincided with our lowest national unemployment rate and fastest economic growth. Immigrant entrepreneurs create jobs for U.S. and foreign workers, and foreign-born students allow many U.S. graduate programs to keep their doors open. While there has been no comprehensive study done of immigrant-owned businesses, we have countless examples: in Silicon Valley, companies begun by Chinese and Indian immigrants generated more than $19.5 billion in sales and nearly 73,000 jobs in 2000. In addition to the consumer spending of immigrant households, immigrants and their businesses contribute $162 billion in tax revenue to U.S. federal, state, and local governments. While it is true that immigrants remit billions of dollars a year to their home countries, this is one of the most targeted and effective forms of direct foreign investment.
(Source: http://www.cato.org/research/article...ld-020218.html)

During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born, filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and low-skill ends of the spectrum. Immigrants fill jobs in key sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly $10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of immigrants arrive in prime working age. That means we haven't spent a penny on their education, yet they are transplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion toward our social security system over the next 20 years.
(Source: Andrew Sum, Mykhaylo Trubskyy, Ishwar Khatiwada, et al., Immigrant Workers in the New England Labor Market: Implications for Workforce Development Policy, Center for Labor Market Studies, Northeastern University, Boston, Prepared for the New England Regional Office, the Employment and Training Administration, and the U.S. Department of Labor, Boston, Massachusetts, October 2002. http://www.nupr.neu.edu/11-02/immigration.PDF)

The percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign-born now stands at 11.5%; in the early 20th century it was approximately 15%. Similar to accusations about today's immigrants, those of 100 years ago initially often settled in mono-ethnic neighborhoods, spoke their native languages, and built up newspapers and businesses that catered to their fellow émigrés. They also experienced the same types of discrimination that today's immigrants face, and integrated within American culture at a similar rate. If we view history objectively, we remember that every new wave of immigrants has been met with suspicion and doubt and yet, ultimately, every past wave of immigrants has been vindicated and saluted.
(Source: Census Data: http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/censr-4.pdf)

No security expert since September 11th, 2001 has said that restrictive immigration measures would have prevented the terrorist attacks-instead, the key is effective use of good intelligence. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas. Since 9/11, the myriad of measures targeting immigrants in the name of national security have netted no terrorism prosecutions. In fact, several of these measures could have the opposite effect and actually make us less safe, as targeted communities of immigrants are afraid to come forward with information.
(Source: Associated Press/Dow Jones Newswires, "US Senate Subcommittee Hears Immigration Testimony", Oct. 17, 2001.)
(Source: Cato Institute: "Don't Blame Immigrants for Terrorism", Daniel Griswold, Assoc. Director of Cato Institute's Center for Trade Policy Studies http://www.cato.org/dailys/10-23-01.html)

@Mike Wrecka @Veritas the invincible

[uh-oh]

I think the real question at hand is would diode with his never ending compassion allow 10 striktas to live in his house?

[uh-oh]

Also V you shouldve stated your terrible analogy along the lines of 10 people want to stay at your house and one might have ebola. It wouldve made more sense, yet still been irrelevant. But i like to see you fighting the good fight.

[Objective]

@uh-oh and @Mike Wrecka, I will get back to your points at a later notice. I read it some time back and started writing some but in order to be sure it was true I had to read up on some things and educate myself first. In the moment of doing so, I went to the toilet, went back to facebook, then youtube and blam closed the browser. Fuck... But I'll adress them later on.

In the meantime I advice you, and everyone else for that matter, to read this and reflect on the words before attacking (or even defending) the points it makes: http://www.thenation.com/article/aft...ard-heres-why/ After you've done that I'll be happy to debate further because your views are pretty foreign to me and I can learn more about the mentality behind those that oppose them.

From the article:

I was dumbfounded. Norway, Denmark, and Sweden practice variations of a system that works much better than ours. Yet even the Democratic presidential candidates, who say they love or want to learn from those countries, don’t seem know how they actually work.

Also:

So here’s the big difference: In Norway, capitalism serves the people. The government, elected by the people, sees to that. All eight of the parties that won parliamentary seats in the last national election—including the conservative Høyre party now leading the government—are committed to maintaining the welfare state. In the United States, however, neoliberal politics puts the foxes in charge of the henhouse, and capitalists have used the wealth generated by their enterprises (as well as financial and political manipulations) to capture the state and pluck the chickens.

[uh-oh]

I read it. I'll sleep on it and get at this tomorrow, one thing i will say is i disagree with everything to do with workers unions. Maybe they work differently over there, but over here you need to be cosigned in, pay exorbitant fees so the union leaders can throw shit parties, and they are all overpaid, do shit work at a snails pace and abuse the system to the point that a business or corporation would be stupid to hire union workers when people like me will come in and do a better job for a fraction of there salary.

One thing the US isnt in short supply of is its workforce. If ill do the job for a fraction of what a union will, best believe a Guatemalan will do it for a fraction of qhat i will take.

[uh-oh]

But uhoh, white people and americans feel they are too good to do the jobs illegal immigrants are willing to do. Huh. I wonder why. I work for a living and just had to pay money to the government during tax time. 40 hours a week. 52 weeks a year. Get like 5 holidays off, and 5 sick days paid.

My buddy meanwhile broke his hand got addicted to percocet, now sells them, pays no taxes, knocked his wife up with 3 kids, she works part time at a dollar store, and theyre getting 8 grand back in taxes when his wife didnt even make 8 grand probably, on top of the 600 a month in food stamps, rent assistance from the government etc. They live better than i do off mine, and every other working americans dollars

Eliminate that nonsense, dont give more social programs to help these losers. If they were starving maybe theyd go pick vegetables for minimum wage

America is different than those nordic countries. Our population is huge. The jobs are there, you just have to swallow your pride and work your way up honestly

I get clowned like im a poor savage. Im doing great. I got a shit job at a place i was above working at. I used that shit job to parlay into another shit job. I worked that shit job and got raises each year and now

[uh-oh]

I make more money than most of the people i went to school with and my job is paying for me to further my education in that field so i can make even more money.

No college. No diploma. Just real world american hard work.

My 24k a year or whatever sounds like shit but i have more than i need and live a happy life.

I agree in raising wages in places where cost of living is astronomical. But 12 an hour where im at is like 20 an hour in seattle or some place where 15 an hour makes sense as a minimum wage.

Im almost 5 dollars over the minimum wage. But im a poor uneducated toothless savage so what do i know.

[Certain]

Weren't you under $20,000 a year like two years ago, though? With no health insurance? Why the antipathy toward your roots?

[uh-oh]

Yes and i supported myself and my pops. No government assistance, i tried to get it but i made too much money according to them.

I still have no health insurance. I think its retarded to be forced to pay for it in a free society. Im not against free healthcare, i am against being forced to pay or being penalized

There is no why, really. Its just my views. Maybe its because i live amongst the peasants and see things for what it is. Im also in a small spreadout city, not an unrealistic mega metropolis. I understand that the system in those places is basically rigged if you are underpriveleged and the jobs arent there and all that i get it. I just see that as a problem that should fall on state and local governments. Not the federal government. The feds should be nothing but the military really. The government is to big.

To socialize everything makes it even bigger and more intrusive. We need to cut programs not add them

[Objective]

The Union you speak of sounds corrupt to say the least. That needs a serious clean up because it's supposed to protect the workers and all workers so they get the pay they're supposed to. But it's not a given you're given a job as well.

Everyone knows crime pays if you don't get caught.

If you struggle bad, you struggle bad and can't help it. I'm at a position in life where I can do fuck all, I'm worth shit atm. Just found out last therapist session it's anxiety and depression (knew that) coupled with PTSD (news to me, I didn't think it was that bad but apparently it is). I can't work due to energy levels being so low there's days where I wonder if I can even pick up the frying pan safely and make my own food without setting the house on fire or injure myself. It's that bad due to adrenalin being pumped constantly from the PTSD which goes out on my cortisol, and when that's drained not only am I more prone to getting the flu every other week (like I do) I'm also so drained of energy I can't function properly. And the serious sleep issues doesn't help my case either.

Thanks to help from the state I'm on a program to get me back to work with work practice in a firm that I helped build (we're just starting to get money into the firm now, me and 2 friends runs it and just today we got 4840$ on your firms bank account from clients). I don't get to see these money at all since I can't get paid while I'm on this program, I'm fine with that as it helps me get my life back on track while simultaneously pushing money back into the tax system and making a future for myself. When I'm back to full time work I'll probably make at least four times as much as I do now but unfortunately I mentally and physically can't. When I get back to work I don't mind paying a lot in taxes to give others the chance I have and it'll fast enough be put back into the pool once they get back to work too. Look upon it as investment because without it I'd probably be homeless and going back'n'forth to all kinds of other shit and generally being a dirtperson to society. Sure, people will abuse the system but most won't even though the media say differently. Most people want to feel like they matter and having a steady job and income not dependent on others is a huge factor to that. Those who try to abuse the system will still be put on work related programs etc. and pushed around to find something unless you got a doctors note that you suffer from this or that they won't let it slide. At least not around here, they'll put you on work related programs, school, education and group therapies etc. Prescription drugs is rarely the answer and you need a reform on that too, because the handbook of when to prescribe them is extremely different from the ones they use over here.

Also, I only got high school as well but know quite a bit when it comes to the line of work I'm in (web design, sales department and project management) with a developer with a masters degree in IT and programming on our team and another guy that dropped out of high school in the first week to start working on his own (he's the one that figured me and him should start a firm together since he saw the potential), and I got a knack for people and deals so I've managed to close a couple sales based on that too working with known brand name food chains to private business owners and hospitals. We currently got office spots in a place alongside product designers, architects, photographers and movie producers +++. It's pretty dope.

When I'm out of this shithole I'll make a shitload with my own firm thanks to the help and support of professionals and great colleagues and friends. An opportunity I wouldn't have had elsewhere or could even dream of. I'll agree that I've been really lucky as well though but even if my friends wouldn't be there, and the opportunity of being the co-owner of a firm with equal shares I'd still be working somewhere or going to school while figuring out wtf is wrong with me and work towards what is now my fall back plan of becoming a pre-school teacher. So I'd still have a chance at life.
Most likely, by the way things are going now and the quality of the product we deliver I won't be a poor fuck when I get back in work being my own boss and having therapists and consultants breathing down my neck (but thank God they do, I might have been dead if they didn't and I'm not exaggerating), working about 40-50 hours a week (we aim on 5 days a week, 8 hours a day but deadlines do exist). You know, just living the Nordic Scandinavian dream.

I have been working full time in the past at a daycare (loved it, no Tyson) but I can't keep a full time job right now because I'm severely fucked up in my head. And I'm lucky to have that opportunity due to where I'm from. Sure, your population is a lot higher than we have here but that also means you'll make a lot more in return taxes once it works as it should. It isn't done in a year or two but you'll see the fruits of it soon enough and get more people back in work. There will be more job positions available in the long run since working above a set amount isn't the standard anymore, and bosses and the like won't get so easily away with modern day slavery.

Sucks that you didn't get help for your father and got tough love from the state but it doesn't need to be that way. It SHOULDN'T be that way. Also 40 hours a week, 52 weeks of a year isn't okay. There should be a set minimum wage so that even when you choose the ''shit paid jobs'' it's still good enough to make a decent living when there's laws set in place so it can't go lower than a certain amount either so people will generally go for the most qualified people by default. Corruption may still be an issue but hopefully that'll have repercussions (like they do over here) that could be devastating enough for firms and workplaces to not take that risk since it could mean the end or a serious blow to their empire and end up costing more than they earned during the time it went unnoticed. It only seems unfair to do that now because the system you have are built upon unfair grounds and the rich gets richer while the poor get poorer principle.

I trule hope things change for the better for the US because from the outside I can't do nothing but feel deeply for the majority of you that go through year after year as robots in a system without being looked upon as human beings the majority of the time by the capitalist power structure that further demoralize and hurt your country from the inside.

Don't take me wrong, I love the US and can't wait to visit several states and cities in the future along with its great nature but you best believe I won't go there to get inspired from your way of doing things the next time I got a possible person in front of me that I may or may not hire.

Oh, and the guy I spoke about earlier in this thread with a chronic stomach disease? He's the one that wanted me in on this shit and joined forces with the programmer. Without his extremely expensive meds (in the states he wouldn't be able to afford them) this highly potential of a lucrative firm wouldn't even have been made. But just now we've spat back into the pool quite a bit of money from taxes and used freelancers/designers supplying work from what otherwise would have been impossible without the socialist way of doing things. So even from an economics capitalist standpoint it would foolish not to see the the benefits a system like this gives back for monetary reasons alone.

[Witty]

@Objective I've recently been diagnosed with severe OCD, remember that the human mind can get past anything, keep going bro :)

[veritas]

I want to know, would anyone be willing to let 10 syrians in their house if 1 of them was an ISIS member? And you didn't know which one it was?

Please answer honestly.