How is social order maintained?

[Witty]

So I've decided to study sociology and psychology in my spare time. Pretty basic shit so far, but do you think our social order is maintained by conflict or by consensus...does society function due to the ruling classes or by the togetherness of the people?

Are our values agreed or dictated?

[Diode]

Increasingly by the ruling classes, as it had been for hundreds of years.

The 20th Century was an anomaly.

[Chill Phil]

Originally Posted by Diode

Increasingly by the ruling classes, as it had been for hundreds of years.

The 20th Century was an anomaly.

that.

checks and balances. freedom vs order and shit

[Inno]

Everything is dictated.

"If there's an original thought out there I could use it now"

[Aero]

Our social structure begins with the basic familial unit. We are dominated by our basic survival needs of food, clothing and shelter then it's the need for companionship etc all beginning in a familial unit. It's how nature formed us as homosapiens.

[Witty]

I see your point and agree, but what about our values? How we treat each other? Is it all dictated or do we reach a societal understanding based on what benefits society as a whole? If we were not given laws, would we behave in a civilised manner as it would be best for everyone?

Obv there are criminals and whatnot who already don't do this, but I mean the wider population of civilised countries.

[oats]

Originally Posted by Witty

I see your point and agree, but what about our values? How we treat each other? Is it all dictated or do we reach a societal understanding based on what benefits society as a whole? If we were not given laws, would we behave in a civilised manner as it would be best for everyone?

Obv there are criminals and whatnot who already don't do this, but I mean the wider population of civilised countries.

Hernando de Soto wrote an excellent book kind of about this (The Mystery of Capital, I believe it's called). In it, he makes a pretty compelling case that one of the most important aspects of social order/development is an enforced legal infrastructure. There's a reason "law" and "order" tend to go hand in hand.

Values are cultural though, and as such they're malleable.

My recent hobby-learning has been neuro-economics, I think you'd enjoy getting into it.

[uh-oh]

Originally Posted by quaker oats

Hernando de Soto wrote an excellent book kind of about this (The Mystery of Capital, I believe it's called). In it, he makes a pretty compelling case that one of the most important aspects of social order/development is an enforced legal infrastructure. There's a reason "law" and "order" tend to go hand in hand.

Values are cultural though, and as such they're malleable.

My recent hobby-learning has been neuro-economics, I think you'd enjoy getting into it.

how do you enforce laws?

Check

[Objective]

Originally Posted by quaker oats

My recent hobby-learning has been neuro-economics, I think you'd enjoy getting into it.

Elab? Read a little bit on wikipedia, seems very interesting. Any specific books/online articles you recommend?

Also, on topic: going to read this thread and see if there's anything more to add. But my general stance as of now without reading anything is that the concept of morals is flawed and is hugely based on principles the majority stands behind that has little to no ground in reality and is solely based on survival and comfort, ego and tribe mentality. It can't boil down to intellect as some of the most intelligent people are serial killers and messed up narcissists with values that are fucked up and surpass most peoples understanding of right/wrong, certain rules are taught and followed but not understood etc. Seems like uhoh and destro is already covering it. Looking forward to read the thread in its entirety. Good thread.

[Diode]

well now you're just getting into the old nature vs. nurture argument.

[uh-oh]

Hey dummies

The threat of violence is all that keeps it together

[Diode]

Originally Posted by uh-oh

Hey dummies

The threat of violence is all that keeps it together

False. There are many who don't flinch at violence nor value life.

see: ISIS.

Violence does not deter them. The ruling class does, by manipulating their effect on the world (for better or for worse) via money, alliances, and religion.

[uh-oh]

Originally Posted by Diode

False. There are many who don't flinch at violence nor value life.

see: ISIS.

Violence does not deter them. The ruling class does, by manipulating their effect on the world (for better or for worse) via money, alliances, and religion.

Isis is the ruling class. Whereever they are at least. They rule through the fear of violence. Not just because they will burn you alive if you are a sorceror, but they will use the fear of the west againsg their own people to get their own people to enlist and commit violence to establish dominance in there region

Its all violence and the threat of it. We are living creatures whose movements are determined by self preservation. We can have ideaologies and agendas that seem unique but in the end its to further our own lives. If an al qaeda leader or isis or hezbollah or filthy jew can brainwash someone into blowing themselves up, he furthered his own agenda at living longer while also instilling fear in others further empowering himself. And the person dead was fucking stupid. Darwinism. The smart guy talked the dumb guy into dying.

[Destroyer]

I'd argue that intellect plays a bigger role than its getting credit for here

[~RustyGunZ~]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

I'd argue that intellect plays a bigger role than its getting credit for here

No way bro

Clearly the illuminati

[Pharaohs Army]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

I'd argue that intellect plays a bigger role than its getting credit for here

True.

After I posted, I realized that you had said this, succinctly, b4 i said
Perhaps at some point humans just realized "why pick this berry or vegetable if I can work together with fellow humans to grow them and feed the whole family? or the whole tribe. and store some for winter. and trade them for furs, which I don't have, but, this other guy who lives close by specializes in them".. etc etc
-

Originally Posted by Witty

@pharaoh's army - I read an opinion that what Marx failed to také in to account was the drive and ability of the opressed to overcome as individual rather than as a unit, and that his worldview supposed that the weak and downtrodden will always be so unless they unite, disregarding individuality as a means to escape.

Would you agree? I think he was right about the problem, but fell short on the solution.

sounds very Ayn-Randish. lol.. altho i pretty much agree..
right about the problem, fell short on solution.. totalitarians certainly hurt his cause haha.

But tbh you are starting another topic...I know some basic things, but frankly I haven't read Marx... & I don't know how to answer your initial question bout the maintenance of social order without doing at least a little research.

the commie thing was me grasping for a quick example..
perhaps rather than philosophy/ideology- written my marx/engel- i should have pointed to the Russian revolution itself... The way ruling class toppled; there were breaking points, etc.
Although a new social order rose- probly quicker- than other "topplings" in different places&times.. Bah!

Originally Posted by quaker oats

In it, he makes a pretty compelling case that one of the most important aspects of social order/development is an enforced legal infrastructure. There's a reason "law" and "order" tend to go hand in hand.

Again hedging- haven't read the de Soto book... But what you've summarized here makes me wonder-- Which comes first?.. Could an enforced legal structure technically come After social order/development?... semantics?
probably more like a perpetual cycle, more laws&enforcement with more order; more order with more laws&enforcement.
Is this coherent? I think u said somethin bout a chicken&egg few weeks ago.

[its faggot zelph]

Didn't know that

[Witty]

Who mentioned the illuminati?

I'm talking our governments. Our political classes.

[~RustyGunZ~]

Originally Posted by Witty

Who mentioned the illuminati?

I'm talking our governments. Our political classes.

Doesn't matter who you're talm bout the nati all up in it

[Witty]

They done shot my dog.