Fermi paradox problems.

truth. one of my physics professors in college worked for SETI for years, and despite being an earnest believer that life HAS to exist elsewhere in the universe, as a man of science he relented that there is literally 0 evidence for it. unless you count ancient aliens.


problems arise with any idea of infinity, because if you want to apply math (which most scientists do), the use of infinity basically fucks over any attempts to quantify things.

elaborate on this please. why is this thinking a fundamental error?

I'm assuming its because its mathematically impossible to figure it out or very hard to figure out.
@oats you gotta degree in physics?

Quantum physics scares the shit out of me.

Not directly connected to the topic, but it is indirectly, and I just wanted to tell someone.

It is weird tho for real bros.

fermi paradox.

applying them to astrophysics is craziness. string theory is fun stuff.

regular quantum physics are becoming a reality, which is super exciting. the sheer concept of calculating all possibilities at once is ridiculous. a tangible use will revolutionize civilization. quantum hard drives and computers already exist (though on a functional level, the modern equivalent of a 60ft 1940s DOD punch card "computer")

Agreed. Read my post on the second page of this thread.

have morgan freeman explain it to you

relaxxxxxxxxxxxx

Morgan Freeman shows up at my college all the time apparently but I've never seen him. Forreal. But if I do see him ill tell him to explain whatever it is that you're talking about.

He already has. Google it. The Universe with Morgan Freeman.

THROUGH THE WORMHOLE WITH MORGAN FREEMAN

but diode you are incorrect

the universe is infinite

my opinion is fact. your opinion is false.

@Mike Wrecka it's a logical fallacy. It's like saying "all men are human, therefore are humans are men." Space is nothing. Our association with space is planets, stars, celestial bodies, etc, but those are all examples of things in space, not space itself. Space itself is the absence of matter, in the same way that cold itself is not a force, but an absence of heat.

So let's work under the assumption that space is infinite. The error is: since "nothing" (space) is infinite, the potential for things (matter) must also be infinite.

The problem with that thinking is, at this point, our understanding of the physical universe is that matter can't be created or destroyed, which means there is a finite amount of matter in the universe. To be sure, white holes are highly theoretical, so we're operating under things that have a legitimate amount of evidence. This notion could change, but as of now, conservation of matter is considered a scientific law.

To summarize, the fact that the absence of matter could potentially be infinite, it does not necessitate that matter to occupy that space is also infinite.
@Zenland I didn't, but I took a number of physics classes in college and used to teach high school physical science (physics and chemistry), so I had to pass the content competency tests and all that as well. I'm no expert by any means, but I know a thing or two.

how come people think black holes, are HOLES

for real tho i never understood that. a black hole could just be a rock we don't know about. that is so dense or whatever, its gravity is insane, so instead of shit disappearing into a hole, its really just getting sucked into a gravitational force beyond comprehension that warps whatever it is, and it gets pulled ONTO not INTO the rock.

its the same idea, it just cuts out the fairy tale of it being a weird hole that makes no sense unless you want wormholes and whiteholes to exist, when they dont.

but word. not even light can escape the gravity of the weird rock. so it appears to be a hole. really its just rock with crazy gravity yo

makes more sense to me

oats is smart

Yeah, we literally have no idea what is really going on past the even horizon.

I think we use the term black hole kinda like we use the term dark matter, it doesn't really mean anything because we have no idea what it is, how it works, why it works, it is just a loosely fitting tag for something we are currently almost completely ignorant about, we know something is there but we don't really know what it actually is.

that's all very interesting. so you are saying that while space is infinite the matter within an infinite amout of space is finite. I have some problems with this.

if space goes on forever, but the matter in space comes to an end are you extrapolating that either

a) the matter in space is equally spread out throughout the infinite space? which would in turn make the matter infinite

b) that matter is finite in an infinite space which means that the matter eventually stops but space keeps going. which means that the space beyond that point is a total barren empty waste land going forever and forever? that doesn't sound realistic to me. it almost harkens back to the we are the center of the universe theory of the middle ages

care to keep going and explain a little further? im enjoying this conversation

@Mike Wrecka in regards to point A, many people believe that something to that nature will eventually happen (The Big Freeze, as it's been dubbed), though our knowledge of the history of the universe tends to disagree thus far. Meaning, the very fact that planets and galaxies exist at all is because of gravitational discrepancies from the Big Bang. If everything was distributed evenly, then heavier elements would have never crashed into/combined with lighter elements and formed any sort of order. The concept of planetary evolution itself flies in the face of thermodynamics, too, but that's neither here nor there. But to answer your question, matter is not equally dispersed, and likely never will be.

As far as point B is concerned, there are differing views. I think it was you who mentioned the Doppler Effect, that the universe is expanding (we know this by viewing the red shift of other objects in space, which indicates that things are moving away from us). The traditional scientists believes this is the ripple effect of the Big Bang, that the force of it caused everything to continue in motion, with no force to slow it down or stop it. Others believe there are white holes, which are pumping matter into the known universe and causing it to expand. Truth is, we don't know. Or at least, I don't know. In terms of space being barren, all space is barren. That's what I mean about the fundamentally flawed understanding of what space is - space is nothing, it's an absence. So yes, assuming the Big Bang happened, matter is moving into an infinite absence of matter, unless there are eventually other universes (which M Theory suggests). Again, we are still figuring out things like dark matter and antimatter, so our perspective of these things is extremely limited at this point.

good shit oats. I tackle these type of questions more from a philosophy stand point without actually knowing much of the science involved.

but I think that you are thinking too much of the observable universe. the big bang could just be one of an infinite number of big bangs. we will never know. and that's why its fun to try to figure it out

I think science is at its best when pursued with a sense of artistry and creativity. Problem is, most people skip the parts about actually knowing what they're talking about and go straight to the imaginative explanations of things. I call this "stoner science," and it is usually delivered with a false sense of certainty and authority, and it's annoying.

So I say to you, in all respect, that it is easier to focus on the philosophy of things than the actual science, probably because thoughts without any factual base are above criticism, whereas actual science can be debunked. I'd encourage you to start on the opposite end of the spectrum and earn the right to creativity. That's when it gets really fun.

That being said, I agree with what you're saying though. There could have been plenty of bangs, there could be virtually any other possibility you can imagine in this universe or the next. I'm just a little more interested in the things that can be supported by more than "it's not impossible."

Because mathematically speaking, any object or matter with that gravity would collapse in on itself and cease to be matter...which is literally what a black hole is uh-oh. By definition they cannot be matter. They are more like gravitational nexus...identifying them as matter (as far as I understand it; but I studied metaphysics, not astro physics or particle physics) would necessitate the discovery of a gravity particle. That would be the scientific discovery of the next 4 or 5 eons. Real, tangible evidence of gravitons would for all intents and purpose, render quantum theory into scientific law.

So, you would basically have to prove the existence of gravitons beyond scientific doubt, and then be able to apply mass to said particle.
The graviton is literally the last force carrier that we have to discover; it's discovery would render full fledged experiments into the unified field theory a reality.

Then again I only have the most base knowledge of this stuff.
I could have a bunch of stuff mixed up and wrong in my head.

that dont make sense tho

if it collapses in on itself and ceases to be matter, what is it? anti matter? does it just cease to exist? i dont get it. i'm dumb tho so there is that

but it wouldnt make sense to me, if it collapses and ceases to be matter how does it still have gravity, to pull something into it, and not only that have so much gravity LIGHT can't escape it

i just dont get it, where does all that shit go? i refuse to believe in some weird tunnel type wormhole that spews it out somewhere else

or even in just the theory of a hole. if my sock has a hole in it, and my toe goes through it, my toe went through the hole and is now visible, so if a black hole is a hole, with my stoner dropout knowledge there is something on the other side, what tho?

some would say another universe, or the same universe and a different part just spewing this stuff out of a "white hole"

but white holes dont exist

its some crazy heavy metal rock that is stupid dense and thats all i can wrap my head around


i mean there are asteroids that are made up of nothing but GOLD. so to me it doesnt seem far fetched that some piece of crazy unknown metal is really a black hole, its gravity just shits on everything

I just told you what it is...it's essentially gravity so dense it has mass. Or it might be better described as mass so dense that it essentially becomes gravity. Like I said, a gravitational nexus. Black holes are singularities, which basically means math doesn't exist in a black hole.
Gravity is so strong that matter is condensed into a value of point mass, which is an area of mass that is infinitely small. Tiny beyond measure...quite literally extra dimensionally small. (like your penis...hoiyyoooo) As I understand it, matter is eradicated, and the mass of that matter is condensed into a point so small, that it is beyond subatomic.
The more mass and matter that is introduce, the more dense that point gets, and the further reach, the larger, a black "hole" becomes; even though the point at which that mass is concentrated doesn't expand at all.

A piece of metal of any type could not exist at the center, because all matter in the universe is made up of an atomic structure, bound together by an EM Field. Neither EM Fields, nor atoms can exist in a singularity because the point at which mass is concentrated within said singularity is infinitely smaller than either.

All of this is based on theory, because in actuality, we have no idea how the fuck gravity works. To understand, we need to observe extra-dimensional acitivty on a quantum level, and/or discover the particle which communicates gravitational force. Which is what I said the first time.

My brain. It hurts

thats what i'm saying tho pay

that theory is retarded

mine is better

its some crazy space gold

math exists in everything, i refuse to believe there are weirdo spots where it doesnt

Lol...then its on you to prove that there is matter out there made up of something other than atoms, because the gravity of a black hole is so great that it destroys them. Call me when you're revered as the second coming of sha'bat because of this.

Its not that math doesn't exist...just that math can't quantify it. A singularity is a point where math just doesn't work. So pretty much it's magic.




But word. I like your theory better. Super durable space gold sounds like something that would make us rich as FUCK.

ALLEGEDLY

the atoms of this specific metal could just be stupid strong

like the only difference between a steel bar and a sponge is how its atoms sit on eachother

its just some crazy dense shit where the atoms are snugger than we thought possible

so they aren't destroyed

there is a tiny piece of metal the size of the moon thats gravity is so strong it just sucks everything into it, and it "GROWING" is just all the stuff being smashed and rearranged on its surface

Atoms are atoms...they don't vary in strength...the density of the structures they make up and the EM bonding between them do. The gravity of a black hole is so strong that it eradicates ANY form of Em bonding and compresses those atoms into an area smaller than the atoms themselves. You're focusing on the matter part and ignoring the gravity part. Even IF matter was condensed to the point where where the atoms we're overlapping, it would not create a gravitational force that light cannot escape from.

What you are talking about exists...it is called a neutron star.

What you have to understand is that the particle carrier of the Em Force, which is what binds atoms, is the photon. Without that force, atoms cannot be bound together. If the gravity of a black hole is great enough to overcome light, it overcomes the structural integrity of atoms by default. Yes, Gravity "squishes" atoms together...than it utterly destroys them keeping only the mass of said matter. Oats or someone, please correct me if I'm wrong on this btw.

Literally, nothing exists beyond the sub-atomic uh-oh. It's an impossibility.
The very nature of atomic structure disallows it.

The center mass of a black hole is infinitely smaller than even a single atom, therefore it is a point at which matter cannot exist.

I get yuhioh world

nah you ain't understanding me

the atoms are so perfectly placed and arranged/bonded in this metal

the gravity FROM THIS rock, which is much bigger than a single atom, CRUSHES and dissassembles atoms from weaker matierials(everything known) and they become part of the metal itself

you follow?

you are talking about what a black hole does

i am talking about what the black hole IS

I think it's finite.

AT the end doesn't have to be a brick wall. That's 3rd grade reasoning. Probably a portal that leads on the other side of space, like tons and hundreds of millions of billions of trillions lightyears away.

I think we're in a pendant on a cat's neck in a massive locker room tho

+ anjahl sounds smarter than uh-oh so I agree with him.

Also coming from the guy that said LeBron could be the best NFL player ever so yeah anjahl >

never said that

i'ma put my hands in your butt

It doesn't change the fact that light particles are the carrier force of electromagnetism without which atoms cannot be bonded uh-oh. If light cannot exist in a blackhole nothing can. I'm not talking what black holes do....I'm talking what they are. You're saying black holes are nebulous around matter when in fact the very existence of a blackhole proves that all matter in that space has been destroyed. What part of mass infinitely smaller than subatomic dont you get? If matter existed there, it wouldn't be a black hole. Like I said....what you're talking about is a neutron star.

The only possible way I can even dream of that what you are saying would even be possible is if this metal was made up off something other than atoms and bonded using gravity itself which would prove the existence of gravitons.

what part of it isnt no subatomic mass don't you get?

a black hole can be as big as the moon. can be tons and tons of atoms. all that made up mumbo jumbo is speculation that it is actually a hole

i'm saying it isnt

its a giant space rock that's gravity pulls everything into it

maybe light isnt getting destroyed? maybe we just can't see it cuz we have dumbass human eyes YO

It is finite...space is finite around a curvature of time which is infinite. Generally speaking if space is a sphere and you hit the end of it, you would then begin moving along that "wall" without ever perceiving it.

I just came up with that. Sounds dope though.

We can't actually see blackholes in the first place uh-oh. They only exist as mathmetical conclusions. If gravity is strong enough to prevent the escape of light, then it is gravity too strong for atoms to survive. End of story. If this wasn't the case then black holes wouldn't be singularities.

You are trying to postulate something that science has already proven as an impossibility.

nah man you don't get it

the atoms are so strategically perfectly arranged that they aren't destroyed

its the super element of the universe

if i have one arrow, i can snap it over my knee, but if i have 20 arrows i can't snap them over my knee at once

science

What is nothing?