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Dominate 01-07-2020 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaohs Army (Post 752100)
I like the idea of 1K a month but watch, the price of EVERYTHING would rise exponentially if this was put in place.
Companies still have to compete for your dollars. If a business can sell their product at $5 and make a profit, then suddenly jacks their price up to $10, another company will just come along and sell it for $5 and put that other company out of business.

boof 01-07-2020 05:34 PM
everything is already rising dramatically in price without UBI and stagnant wages. if it did after ubi, it would be a choice by capitalists who would jack up prices just based on that knowledge, which is why i also support rent control, using the international drug pricing index as the standard for pharma(yang), medicare for all, a $15/minimum wage, etc.

fyi dom no ones arguing the $1,000 would go to small businesses. i simply said small businesses would take in more money once the working class as a whole gets a significant raise, because uh-oh was trying to say a $15 minimum wage would hurt small businesses.

uh-oh 01-07-2020 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752099)
Word so then you’d be CHOOSING to be poor. Another guy with the same income as you living paycheck to paycheck who wants to get ahead or build something for his kids is now able to by continuing to work hard or by switching careers to something more lucrative. That’s how it should be. People should be poor by choice, not circumstance.

Which is all not to mention that the idea of working for a living is fast becoming impossible for millions of people bc of the rise of AI. All the people working in call centers, retail, driving trucks... millions of them about to experience what people working in manufacturing went through. Even IF we somehow got a lot better at implementing retraining programs (success rate for people coming out of manufacturing jobs in these programs was around 15%), new jobs in different industries aren’t being created quick enough to fill this void.

I agree it’s disingenuous to argue that the entire $1000/month is all going back into the local community but for most people a reasonable slice of it will - there’s plenty of shit people will spend money on that you can’t buy online. Eating out at a restaurant, going to movies/concerts/sports events, child care, car repairs, blah blah blah.
everyone who is poor didn't choose to be, but in america if you REMAIN poor you are choosing to be. i was poor. im surrounded by all the same shit that drags everyone down. i cut those people out of my life and consented myself to the misery of working a job i hate so i can have money. so can everyone else. i didn't walk in making 50k a year (a pittance compared to other ncg's). it was 8 dollars an hour entry level nonsense, but i grinded it out and worked at my trade until now im comfy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752103)
Companies still have to compete for your dollars. If a business can sell their product at $5 and make a profit, then suddenly jacks their price up to $10, another company will just come along and sell it for $5 and put that other company out of business.
another company would come along and sell it for 9 dollars but word.

boof 01-07-2020 05:56 PM
jeesh imagine thinking cutting the right people out of your life is all it takes to not be poor

uh-oh 01-07-2020 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boof (Post 752085)
the disconnect here is you literally have no idea what most people in our country are like because you've only lived in a few very similar places and aren't the type of person that gets to know different types of people. other people have ethics. other people have interests they cant afford. other people would like to support their friend's endeavors but can't afford it. other people would eat healthier if they could afford it. other people would go do more things in their town if they could afford it. if that's something you can't comprehend, idk what to tell you. building a computer for as cheap as possible is not something most people care about
the computer is an example. the point remains, no one is going to spend more money on the same thing if they can get it cheaper somewhere else. why do you think wal mart bodied everything lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boof (Post 752086)
this is complete bullshit bro. who the fuck would want to stay in their house for the rest of their life, barely pay their simple ass bills, have $9 a day for food, and no car? like wtf are you talking about? no travel? no hobby? no money if you get sick? just bills and ramen? what makes you think anyone actually wants to live like this
if you can't eat good off 250 a month something is wrong with you, im also not saying people would want to live like this, but they might prefer it to working a job they dont want to have a little extra money

Quote:
Originally Posted by boof (Post 752087)
its crazy that you're admitting people only work because their life depends on it, and crazier that you think that's okay.

there are countries where people work less than us and live better, despite having less money per capita, do you understand this?
why work at all if it isn't to survive/better yourself? do you think the lady at mcdonalds just loves making burgers? this is the strangest viewpoint i've ever encountered. the whole point of working is paying your bills and buying things you want lol. for me at least. if you have kids its providing them with a good life and experiences. but no one works because they like working, and tons of people if presented the opportunity to be able to live without working, wouldn't work. the whole idea of ubi is to take that stress off of people. the 1k is the starting point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boof (Post 752088)
so people receiving food stamps sell them for cash because it's more beneficial to them, so let's NOT give them cash in the first place and keep forcing them to sell their food stamps... because cash will... make them want to work less? even tho they're already turning it into cash?
they sell the foodstamps because they don't need 650 dollars worth of groceries and perc's are expensive

Pharaohs Army 01-07-2020 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752103)
Companies still have to compete for your dollars. If a business can sell their product at $5 and make a profit, then suddenly jacks their price up to $10, another company will just come along and sell it for $5 and put that other company out of business.
There's collusion. With 1k a a month EVERY gas station would raise their prices (together & keep them raised)

Probably the same with fast food restaurants

Apartment owners,

etc.

boof 01-07-2020 06:14 PM
^exactly. big pharma does this most effectively. they split the market and jack up prices in unison. that's happening now

Dominate 01-07-2020 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uh-oh (Post 752106)
everyone who is poor didn't choose to be, but in america if you REMAIN poor you are choosing to be. i was poor. im surrounded by all the same shit that drags everyone down. i cut those people out of my life and consented myself to the misery of working a job i hate so i can have money. so can everyone else. i didn't walk in making 50k a year (a pittance compared to other ncg's). it was 8 dollars an hour entry level nonsense, but i grinded it out and worked at my trade until now im comfy.
“In america if you REMAIN poor you are choosing to be”.

I fundamentally disagree. I’m happy to hear your success story but I really don’t believe that’s how it goes for a lot of people, particularly those with kids or those who get sick or injured. And even if I’m wrong about that, there’s still the issue of AI being on the verge of replacing millions of people’s jobs quicker than new ones can be created.

Dominate 01-07-2020 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boof (Post 752115)
^exactly. big pharma does this most effectively. they split the market and jack up prices in unison. that's happening now
Some industries need some degree of regulation. That’s true with or without UBI being a thing though. It wouldn’t be the case for most stuff just like it isn’t now.

Immolate 01-07-2020 07:15 PM
Who?

boof 01-07-2020 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752125)
Some industries need some degree of regulation. That’s true with or without UBI being a thing though. It wouldn’t be the case for most stuff just like it isn’t now.

My point was that it wouldn't be a thing because of UBI, as it already happens now in way more sectors than it should. Imo, some industries shouldn't be for profit. Specifically, ones that determine people's ability to live or die.

uh-oh 01-07-2020 07:33 PM
another take that makes no sense but that other dude who was here like a week already touched on why that was ridiculous

also not at all worried about ai taking jobs in our lifetime to any degree of significance

boof 01-07-2020 07:57 PM
bro its very simple

if the government cared more about americans dying from unaffordable healthcare than they did making sure the executives behind the healthcare industry extracted as much profit as possible out of it, we would have medicare for all

thats why all other developed countries have universal health care

shocker those countries have a higher quality of life than ours

Dominate 01-08-2020 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uh-oh (Post 752135)
another take that makes no sense but that other dude who was here like a week already touched on why that was ridiculous

also not at all worried about ai taking jobs in our lifetime to any degree of significance
You don’t believe the stats/predictions from the (multiple, independent) studies, or you don’t believe the numbers they are predicting (20 million+) are an issue?

Aero 01-08-2020 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752224)
You don’t believe the stats/predictions from the (multiple, independent) studies, or you don’t believe the numbers they are predicting (20 million+) are an issue?
Why are you worried about us though? We can't even name the president of Australia.

Dominate 01-09-2020 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero (Post 752229)
Why are you worried about us though? We can't even name the president of Australia.
Prime minister.

But that’s hardly surprising. We’ve had 5 different ones in 10 years. Our system is broken.

The US is a world superpower. Who you elect as president should be of concern to everyone. Also, I find it particularly interesting at this stage of the game when there’s a lot of different ideas being debated.

Aero 01-09-2020 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752240)
Prime minister.

But that’s hardly surprising. We’ve had 5 different ones in 10 years. Our system is broken.

The US is a world superpower. Who you elect as president should be of concern to everyone. Also, I find it particularly interesting at this stage of the game when there’s a lot of different ideas being debated.

How do Australians feel about America in general? Are they talking about the Iran situation?

Dominate 01-09-2020 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero (Post 752241)
How do Australians feel about America in general? Are they talking about the Iran situation?
Of course. I’m pretty sure you could’ve picked up any major newspaper around the world today and seen something about it on the front page.

Opinions about America in general that are widely held here would include:
- We love your movies and tv shows
- you’re way more religious than us, generally
- your gun laws/gun culture are very unpopular here
- a first world country with no universal healthcare system is crazy to us

Maybe not an opinion that’s widely held but one I think is true: your country is more socially stratified than ours among a number of lines. Your poor people are poorer than our poor people, your rich people are richer. You’ve got a lot of the top minds in the world but also a significant number of people who are dumb as fucking rocks. I think we have less people at the extremes. The differences between your left and right wing major parties are a lot more extreme than ours.

Witty 01-09-2020 08:03 AM
All of what Dom said applies for the UK too.

Blue Bayou 01-09-2020 08:48 AM
Same for the Syrup Slingers

Aero 01-09-2020 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Bayou (Post 752244)
Same for the Syrup Slingers
You guys have the best looking leader by a long shot. That beard got me thinking.

uh-oh 01-09-2020 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752224)
You don’t believe the stats/predictions from the (multiple, independent) studies, or you don’t believe the numbers they are predicting (20 million+) are an issue?
I don't believe in the predictions. I'm still waiting on flying cars doggie.

boof 01-09-2020 12:58 PM
Do you believe 5 million manufacturing jobs have been lost here because of trade deals like NAFTA?

And hopefully you realize there's a million reasons they wouldn't implement flying cars for the public any time soon, most having to do with power and control, and that implementing AI to save corporations money on wages and boost productivity/profit margins is exactly in line with the hypercapitalist system we live in right now?

Zuo 01-09-2020 01:03 PM
Flying cars can’t happen until we’ve achieved absolute world piece

We wouldn’t want Iranian missiles taking them out of the sky by mistake

uh-oh 01-09-2020 02:36 PM
when ai takes over in 300 years just legalize prostitution

don't tax me bro

Dominate 01-09-2020 02:49 PM
We’ll have self driving cars first. Those are not so far away. Amazon is already trailing self driving trucks.

The proposal is to finance the UBI with a ‘value added tax’ (VAT), not an income tax. Basically every other country has a VAT already. It applies to ‘luxury items’ but not basic necessities. So you’d pay an extra 10% for your new computer but not for your groceries or rent or electricity.

uh-oh 01-09-2020 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752268)
We’ll have self driving cars first. Those are not so far away. Amazon is already trailing self driving trucks.

The proposal is to finance the UBI with a ‘value added tax’ (VAT), not an income tax. Basically every other country has a VAT already. It applies to ‘luxury items’ but not basic necessities. So you’d pay an extra 10% for your new computer but not for your groceries or rent or electricity.
self driving cars and more importantly trucks, are VERY far away.

i'm not for any taxes of any sort. the less money the government has of ours the better we all are

boof 01-09-2020 03:39 PM
bro are u serious lol people and rideshare / shuttle services are using self driving cars in america right now

Dominate 01-09-2020 03:40 PM
So how do you pay for, say, the military?

Also I didn’t get an answer from you earlier - do you think all welfare programs should be scrapped, or that where it’s at currently is about right and it shouldn’t be changed?

uh-oh 01-09-2020 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752277)
So how do you pay for, say, the military?

Also I didn’t get an answer from you earlier - do you think all welfare programs should be scrapped, or that where it’s at currently is about right and it shouldn’t be changed?
i think they should be scrapped.

but in all seriousness i think the government needs drastically stripped down to where its only military/fire/police/justice system.

but in a perfect world the fire and police could be privatized as well.

also everything would be decriminalized as far as victimless crimes go.

uh-oh 01-09-2020 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boof (Post 752276)
bro are u serious lol people and rideshare / shuttle services are using self driving cars in america right now
barely, and its ridiculously limited. pretending like we're right around the corner from autonomous 18 wheelers is disingenuous.

Dominate 01-09-2020 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uh-oh (Post 752280)
i think they should be scrapped.

but in all seriousness i think the government needs drastically stripped down to where its only military/fire/police/justice system.

but in a perfect world the fire and police could be privatized as well.

also everything would be decriminalized as far as victimless crimes go.
Then the point you made earlier about poor people not having it that bad compared to other places and times goes out the window. You’d have a lotttt more crime, necessitating a lot more spending on police and the justice system. Plus, letting poor people just starve and die while the people at the top are rich af hasn’t worked out for any regime anywhere in the last century or two. The whole idea behind your second amendment is that if the government/people in power make life unbearable for people then they can do something about it.

Dominate 01-09-2020 04:14 PM
Also, you can’t privatize a nation’s military. How do you propose to pay for that?

uh-oh 01-09-2020 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752284)
Also, you can’t privatize a nation’s military. How do you propose to pay for that?
fire/police not the military.

also the second amendment is to overthrow a tyrannical government, not some rich guy you're envious of because you did nothing with your life but wish the house on the hill was yours instead of working for one.

any person i've ever met who was on welfare, is on welfare. there is no incentive to get off it. i'd be for trying out a system where you have to do some type of work to receive it. like community service or something

but again, the government shouldn't be a factor in your life.

Dominate 01-09-2020 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uh-oh (Post 752285)
fire/police not the military.
Yeah, so you still have to pay a decent amount of tax to finance that. You’re ok with that?

Quote:
also the second amendment is to overthrow a tyrannical government, not some rich guy you're envious of because you did nothing with your life but wish the house on the hill was yours instead of working for one.
I’m saying a government that abandons any semblance of caring about poor people would be seen as tyrannical. And you’re assuming everyone can work for a living. They can’t.



Quote:
any person i've ever met who was on welfare, is on welfare. there is no incentive to get off it. i'd be for trying out a system where you have to do some type of work to receive it. like community service or something
I completely agree there’s no incentive to get off it. Which is why UBI is a better system. Community service is a nice idea but it’s just another thing to check up on and administer. UBI is super efficient. If you’re 18+ and a citizen, you get it. That’s it. No need to check up on people’s work, family situation, living arrangements, health, blah blah blah. It streamlines the government’s role.

uh-oh 01-09-2020 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate (Post 752287)
Yeah, so you still have to pay a decent amount of tax to finance that. You’re ok with that?



I’m saying a government that abandons any semblance of caring about poor people would be seen as tyrannical. And you’re assuming everyone can work for a living. They can’t.





I completely agree there’s no incentive to get off it. Which is why UBI is a better system. Community service is a nice idea but it’s just another thing to check up on and administer. UBI is super efficient. If you’re 18+ and a citizen, you get it. That’s it. No need to check up on people’s work, family situation, living arrangements, health, blah blah blah. It streamlines the government’s role.
im "fine" with paying taxes to fund the military. in a perfect world we would immensely tear it down just to a defensive powerhouse that protects our interests, and not yours and europes as well. but even at what we are spending now, its 1/4 of what UBI would cost per year.

if the majority of people who receive welfare had to work to receive it they would just get a job and work for a living. it would truly go to those that need it.

but i don't like that idea either, im just spitballing

if people are concerned about the welfare of people unfit to work, some enterprising young gentlemen or woman could create a charity that would help them. it shouldn't be mandated under the threat of violence (taxes).

Dominate 01-09-2020 05:34 PM
And how do you stop the people who are just lazy and don’t really need welfare from getting that money from charities any better than you stop them from getting money from the government? I agree these people exist and are a problem, I don’t think they’re the majority like you do but yeah a significant number, sure. I just think the UBI is the best solution. People who leech off the existing welfare system leech off a different system instead, but people who currently work for a living get the same payment, so now they have the option of working to thrive/get ahead instead of working to just get by. And the people who actually need welfare are taken care of too. Plus it’s way more efficient than a welfare system that depends on your circumstances.

I’d be cool with a system that replaced income and company tax with a larger VAT, which wouldn’t apply to necessities like food and rent. Then no one is taking anyone’s money under threat of violence/imprisonment. You choose to buy luxury items, and pay a little more for them. That’s a way more efficient tax system too. Do away with trying to legislate away and administrate and close loopholes that people exploit to avoid tax.

boof 01-09-2020 05:36 PM
bro its painful to know you think there aren't people who get welfare and work

i literally do not know one person who gets welfare and doesn't work, i know dozens of moms age 28-35 who work 40-50 hours a week and barely qualify for a few hundred bucks assistance. dozens of people who can't work from injuries or health reasons, people who worked their entire lives, full time, and are now flat broke from medical bills, etc. like there are an endless amount of examples, you sound so naive pretending people on welfare don't work

Zuo 01-09-2020 05:49 PM
All this talk about welfare but nobody wants to address the elephant in the room huh?

Aero 01-09-2020 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boof (Post 752295)
bro its painful to know you think there aren't people who get welfare and work

i literally do not know one person who gets welfare and doesn't work, i know dozens of moms age 28-35 who work 40-50 hours a week and barely qualify for a few hundred bucks assistance. dozens of people who can't work from injuries or health reasons, people who worked their entire lives, full time, and are now flat broke from medical bills, etc. like there are an endless amount of examples, you sound so naive pretending people on welfare don't work
Thank you. Please talk to these niggas.


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