Wut? @Dominate started a thread, Jude. He directly asked me for my input. I am giving it. Why do you get so mad about it? How am I proseltying? I am just asking @Dominate a question. Why are you being so unreasonable right now?

you are asking an unanswerable question and acting like you know the answer
its basically why i dislike you because you ALWAYS do this

wut?

I simply asked from teh passage he quoted, did God build it or did a man whom Solomon hired. This is not an unanswerable question, Jude. I just want @Dominate to answer...but he won't....for some reason?

perhaps the question for you is this: how can you let your childhood molestation continue to carry over into your modern day life in such a prevalant obvious sublimation? I.e you become complety idiotically illogical and unreasonable when it comes to talk of Divinity? I mean to the tune of seeing things that werent said, and not seeing things that plainly were?

Jude?

childhood molestation?
lmao
stop projecting

Naw man,

This is about you. Please delete your comments. THey are not appropriate. They are a bad look.

or you can let us honestly converse and not be so defensive.

choose.

OK, you win at being more annoying than me.

The answer is obvious, but I don't know why you think that makes some profound point. The only thing I can think is that you think because a man built it it doesn't need to be perfect, and I agree, but if the bible is god's word then the description should be perfect. It should be a perfect description of an imperfect thing.

Inb4 you selectively quote this and type "fair?"
Inb4 you reply with another question and still don't make a point.

Can we just skip ahead to the part where you explain yourself and we actually have something resembling an intelligent conversation?

no, because that would require the ability to have an intelligent conversation, which, if Veritas possessed, he wouldn't be such an outspoken advocate of the Bible's accuracy

Yes. The profound point is that your "profound point " is pointless. As evidenced by it taking you 2 days to answer a simple question. And then even not really being able to. Usually I let you off the hook, but not this time. Because you started this. Allow me explain your foolishness. Oh and....the Bible is God's word.

What this passage did is prove 2 things perfectly. 1. The wisdom of Solomon at the time and 2. How man in all his vaulted glory will still be perfect at never being perfect.

1. Solomon hired the best man for the job. A good practice and a sign of wisdom. He wanted a tough work wrought and he found the right man.

2. This man made an INCREDIBLE WORK OF ART....that was still .14infinity off from perfection. See?


The bible described both of these perfectly. It was 30 cubits as you said. That is what it was.

For an experiment. I challenge you to hand draw a circle on a piece of paper and measure it's circumference....post your pic and results.

If you get that perfect which you wont....go buy some white spray paint and go in your yard and make a 48 ft circle (1 cubit equals 1.6 feet) and tell me the circumference. Post your results.

The points are many here. All logical and reasonable and true. They all prove how you grasped at nothing to try to male a grand point. In doing so you made yourself wrong and God right. Too bad you will be too foolish to see this.

Post your circle pics. Remember also that for Hiram to make a 48 ft circle bowl of brass that close to perfect is pretty remarkable....haven't seen any floating around on e bay. Rekarkable...but not perfect. GLORY TO GOD. This wasn't to illustrate the math of universe silly...it was show how awesome Solomons house was. And how awesome Hiram was....and how even still man will never be perfect in this life. I want to say fair but fools can't be fair. So I will wait and keep repeating myself until you fold because your foundation is pure stupidity.

hey, Veritas, point me to that perfect thing that god made
oh, there's nothing to point at?
got it.

@Dominate

He made the perfect destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Fair?

Ok.

First, you took two days to actually make a point. The answer to the question you posed was obvious. That I refused to engage with you on that level says nothing of the veracity of my argument. Now that you've actually explained your point I am replying to you almost immediately.

Now, I can skip through a lot of your post - I agree hiring the best man for the job is a good idea and that the things described, if they were true, are super duper impressive. Nice job Hiram.

As far as drawing a perfect circle - yes, I can, on paper or a 48ft circumference one if my yard, using a simple tool which would've been available to Hiram, too. I guess you never used a compass in school?

Ok go do it. Post your results.

The fact that Hiram made it 3 and not 3.14 does not in any way negate God perfection or the Bible being his Word, Dom.

How did Job know about the 7th star of the pleiades? Or Isaiah know the world was round? Since we talking science?

this should be the dumbest thing you've ever typed
but it's probably not even close

still don't know what is happening itt. Lots of Math? Not my strongest subject.

Yeah let me just go to the hardware store and paint up my yard to make a point to a stranger on the internet. Lmao come on man.

Drawing a perfect circle is not difficult if you use a simple tool that's been around thousands of years. The best bronze worker of the day would have been able to get a heck of a lot closer to perfection than having the circumference to diameter ratio out by ~5%.

Annnndd even if he wasn't able, it goes back to my point - it's only because of science/reason that we can deduce that Hiram's circle was wonky, or that it wasn't even supposed to be a circle. The bible, on its own, provides insufficient information.

Wrong. Galileos compass was invented in the 1600s lolololollll

The Egyptian's used sticks and ropes attached to them
So here you are proving that man is not perfect by stating that God was wrong for not saying something existed when it didnt. Lolololollll

Oh wait I'm sorry....God didn't say that. Did your science tell you that the compass was around then? Smh. You should probably get your own facts right before you come at me. My foundation is solid. Yours seems to just be made up as you go.

http://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/esplo...toria1_st.html

This makes Hiram being so close even more impressive. This doesn't limit the bible. The things was 30 cubits. If it was 31 God would have said it.

You can't see because you don't want to. Your agenda is showing. I measured it with a compass....from 6 thousand years ago lolololololol.

Go head and draw a circle for us without a compass. Let us know it's measurements.
@Dominate

Science means knowledge. The Bible is full of science. How did Isaiah know the world was a circle? How did Job know of the 7th star of the plieades?
@Dominate

This is the part where you just don't answer me and say I am too stupid to "get it" then tap out and come back in a few months with some new foolishness your perverted Google searches provide you.

Dad is here

OK so the modern compass wasn't invented til later (I didn't know that, - fair, thanks for the info) but the principle behind it is simple af and has been known since forever. A stick with a rope attached to a fixed point will still get you a perfect circle. Or much more accurate than Hiram's at the least. If this dude was drawing his circles freehand then he certainly wasn't "filled with wisdom and understanding" as claimed.

I'm not familiar with the other 2 examples of science in the bible you're talking about, I'd have to do some reading. I'll come back to you on these if you'd like, but it won't be today.

Veritas has actually proven to be the meaning of life and also provided proof of God's existence. Even w this in mind....this is a D÷ thread by NC standards.

I will wait.
@Dominate

Bags...sig check. Your sub con is telling you the truth of your reality thru what you will say is a typo.

OK but in the meantime,

Are you saying that Hiram didn't know he could make a circle by attaching a rope to a fixed point?

Or

Are you claiming that the best circle you can make with a rope attached to a fixed point will have a circumference to diameter ratio that's out by about 5%?

OK so I started reading.

I'm not sure what your point is for the 7th star of the plieades. Maybe you can link me to something? All I turned up from googling is that the plieades is a constellation that's been known to a bunch of civilizations for thousands of years, and that it's mentioned in the bible. Are you trying to claim the bible describes something about it that wasn't already known to man at that point? You'll have to link me - I couldn't find anything.

About the world being a "circle", as you said... Well, that's pretty much the counter argument right there. The world is *not* a circle, it's a sphere. But in Job the correct translation is most definitely "circle" - the word for "sphere/ball" is used elsewhere in Job.

You can twist the interpretation to make it fit the science, but again - that's my point. Without science you would interpret it as meaning the earth is a circle - flat. Religious people DID hold this view until science conclusively disproved it. We had this conversation a while ago and I thought we got somewhere - we agreed that although (hypothetically for me) God's word is perfect, man's interpretation of it can be and has been wrong, so current interpretations of the bible could be wrong. I'm only saying something that's a logical step from that - that science/reason is needed to arrive at the correct interpretations.

We need to be careful about stating what we agreed upon Dom.

I believe that the Bible is God's Word. I believe that the spirit moved upon men to write it. It is supernatural. I believe that the KJV version of the Bible is perfect modern translation. I believe that alot of those other "newer versions" change doctrine and are evil. Although alot of Christians will deny this without studying it. As for the Bible being wrong, it is not. It is man making it say what he wants it to say to fit an agenda.


Now then here is the maxim Dom: "A man can make the Bible say whatever he wants, but he cannot make it say whatever he wants consistently".


Back to the lecture at hand: You believe that man-made science (technology?) trumps God. I believe that as we gain scientific knowledge we will eventually see that we know nothing of the vastness and the complexity of this existence. Point being: Science is the dull spoon scraping against the brick wall which God built. It is our glory to scrape, it is His glory to build it.

Shall i continue or do we need to argue about this reasoning?

We agreed on exactly what I just stated. Read carefully:
-----------------

God's word - the bible - is perfect.

Man is flawed, therefore his interpretation of the bible can be flawed. This doesn't mean the bible is flawed. Just that man can read it incorrectly.

------------------

This is what we agreed^

Now I'm going for the next step:

Several historical examples of incorrect interpretations exist. It's been science/reason that lead to the correct interpretation. Therefore science/reason should be embraced by religious folks as a tool which will bring them closer to the true meaning of god's words.

Having an open mind towards what science/reason tells you doesn't mean questioning god's word. It means questioning your interpretation of it.

The King James Bible is the Word of God and perfect. If you see a contradiction it is merely man's inability to grasp, or an agenda, etc etc.
State your end game with me, and we will proceed. because you taking a passage like the one that started this thread to try to prove that the Bible is wrong now contradicts your words, or makes you guilty of what you just said people do.

unless you are willing to agree that you misinterpreted the passage? @Dominate

@Dominate I just sent you a link to what you are looking for in your visitor messages.

I pray that you study it sincerely. I love you.

Right - so my point is you often NEED science/reason to realise that you haven't grasped god's word correctly, and to guide you to the correct interpretation.

I'm atheist, obviously, but I don't harbour any illusions about converting you. My "agenda" is perhaps just to see if our worldviews can be at all reconciled. I'm interested in religion as a historical and philosophical study... Like you might be interested in Egyptian mythology, perhaps. My initial post was just pointing out something I found fascinating bc I'm interested in both mathematics and religion/philosophy and hadn't been aware of this intersection of the two of them previously.

Well, I'm atheist, so for me it's not a question of interpreting the bible correctly, but rather of whether there is a viable interpretation that can reconcile the bible with science/logic. I realise that this discussion frame is a non-starter for you though, so I'm happy to talk in terms of correct interpretations.

On this passage, I don't think you have a correct interpretation. If the vessel was intended to be circular then Hiram can't have been filled with knowledge and wisdom as claimed, because elementary tools that would've been known and available to him at the time would have rendered a more perfect circle than what was described (if the diameter was 10 cubits then his 'circumference' was out by almost 2ft... ). Somebody mentioned before you came in that perhaps the vessel wasn't a circle at all - maybe it was an oval/ellipse, or egg shaped, or some other shape that's not a circle but doesn't contradict the description given. I think it's out of place that there wouldn't be more description of this shape, but it's a more viable interpretation than a wonky circle. What do you think?

Gay.

Your whole point is just, honestly, not that big of a deal. You are jumping to conclusions.

This is the information the Bible chose to relay, it has nothing to do with the Bible saying Pi is not pi. This is how God wanted to relay the measurements. Would you rather him have listed it as 3.14 to ten decminal places and then converted it to cubits? Isn't it fair to say that God just rounded lol? I mean how precise did you want it to be? Should he have used a whole page of just numbers for place holders? lol cmon man.

Hiram wrought a marvelous work. Him being filled with wisdom and understanding still doesnt mean it would be perfect. But If God wanted it to be, it could. THe point is, he is a man. And he made something freaking amazing, that I don't see men making nowadays. The other point is that Solomon was wise for hiring the best people. The final point is that it is totally fair to say that God rounded and you are reaching and making faulty suppositions based upon crappy agenda filled premises.

I love you in a happy way.

31 would be rounding. 30 is well off. So you're sure it was supposed to be circular then, rather than an ellipse/oval or something?

I think my point isn't insignificant. Science/reason is the tool that leads you away from incorrect interpretations and brings you closer to the true meaning of god's words. It should be embraced by religious people.

I agree that this passage doesn't make that point as strongly as others (flat earth, heliocentricity for example). I just like it because math.

Yo but answer my question - could the vessel be an ellipse?

It said it was round all about. I don't know. I suppose it could be.

As for rounding: 3.1 does not round to 4. 3.14 would round down to 3 not 4. I am kind of afraid of you being so much a science guy and all that and you think that the compass was around for thousands of years and that 3.1 would round up?


math = 4 and below rounds down. 5 and up rounds up.

So like if the measurement of something was 3.5 cubits it would round up to 4 cubits. But if the measurement of something was 3.1 cubits it would round down to 3 cubits.

http://www.kidsmathblog.com/wp-conte...009/04/210.gif

Maybe God just but 3 because he figured an enlightened guy like yourself would have known that?


Fair?

Lol @ elementary school rounding numbers. You realise I have a university degree in maths and am a maths teacher, right?

Where did I say 3.14 rounds to 4, or imply it?

If the diameter is 10 cubits then the circumference should be 10*pi = 31.141592... Which rounds to 31, not 30, as I stated.

3 isn't mentioned in the passage. 10 and 30 are.

Round 1 goes to Dominate.

Round 2 will consist of the next 100 posts.

Thanks for voting. Upping.

hey veritas,
you know that part in the bible where jesus dies and a bunch of dead people rose out of their graves and walked the earth, how'd that event manage to escape the history books??? it seems like that might be a memorable event...

HOLYRoflzords.

You flip flopping hard. It was 30 and 10 right? Right? That the result came to 3 and not 3.14 right !?

So now let me ask you.....does 3.14 round to 4....or 3? Is it possible that it wasn't a perfect circle? Or did it day it was a perfect circle? Is it possible that the 30 and 10 were rounded? Is any of this impossible or in any way negate the truth of God's word?

Your parents wasted their money on your education.

Also....if a fool like pancake says you are winning you should know you are far far from the truth.

Love you.

Edit : you know it had a rim on it and would be narrower under it? Like thing about that......I will be here.

Come on, that is a valid question I posed. Fair?

@Dominate : in could use math to show you how it is still pi. The point is I would rather use reasoning to show how you err in the scriptures because you are a fool who is blinded by an agenda of foolishness. Read that 1000 page book I took the time to send you. Really study it. I challenge you. If after you still don't see then I will cut my losses and stop trying to reason with you.

You remember that huge post I posted of all the historical evidence of Jesus death? Did that satisfy your foolishness even though it contradicted your stance? No.

Post me the kjv version of the verse and we will address it, yes?