Netcees - How is social order maintained?

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- - How is social order maintained? (http://netcees.org/showthread.php?t=122424)

lol what do you mean? Also, start off with Tupac's greatest hits album @Destroyer

So is man by default good or evil?

oats, isn't that what the one fish says to the other?

one fish told the other to start with Pac's Greatest Hits album? Sounds like two dope fishes.

also, 2DopeFishes to replace 2DopeBoys 2016.

does your sig have nothing to do with DFW?

it's Bruce Lee, isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diode (Post 560021)

False. There are many who don't flinch at violence nor value life.

see: ISIS.

Violence does not deter them. The ruling class does, by manipulating their effect on the world (for better or for worse) via money, alliances, and religion.

Isis is the ruling class. Whereever they are at least. They rule through the fear of violence. Not just because they will burn you alive if you are a sorceror, but they will use the fear of the west againsg their own people to get their own people to enlist and commit violence to establish dominance in there region

Its all violence and the threat of it. We are living creatures whose movements are determined by self preservation. We can have ideaologies and agendas that seem unique but in the end its to further our own lives. If an al qaeda leader or isis or hezbollah or filthy jew can brainwash someone into blowing themselves up, he furthered his own agenda at living longer while also instilling fear in others further empowering himself. And the person dead was fucking stupid. Darwinism. The smart guy talked the dumb guy into dying.

uh oh needs to chill with the whole thinking thing

Quote:

Originally Posted by PancakeBrah (Post 560077)

uh oh needs to chill with the whole thinking thing

repped

and yes it's Bruce, @Destroyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veritas the invincible (Post 560048)

So is man by default good or evil?

jesus christ... that's not a very nuanced question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaker oats (Post 560043)

Hernando de Soto wrote an excellent book kind of about this (The Mystery of Capital, I believe it's called). In it, he makes a pretty compelling case that one of the most important aspects of social order/development is an enforced legal infrastructure. There's a reason "law" and "order" tend to go hand in hand.

Values are cultural though, and as such they're malleable.

My recent hobby-learning has been neuro-economics, I think you'd enjoy getting into it.

how do you enforce laws?

Check

@uh-oh does consensus factor in to your world view at all?

For sure

The general consensus of all humans is we dont want sharp things entering our bodies or blunt objects crashing into us. People and cultures set up rules that you can follow to lower the probability that it will happen to them.

If you steal from me i want to harm you. So dont steal. If you harm me and i survive i can end you so you dont harm me again. Etc.

We can pretend we arent animals but we are. Nothing is complex. We can study the structures of society like laws political institutions and everything else but its all derived from the avoidance of physical harm.

#rant
etc
etc

In short, social order could always collapse but it takes "something big", whether it's a jarring event, or a slower decline from unaddressed systemic issues.

@pharaoh's army - I read an opinion that what Marx failed to také in to account was the drive and ability of the opressed to overcome as individual rather than as a unit, and that his worldview supposed that the weak and downtrodden will always be so unless they unite, disregarding individuality as a means to escape.

Would you agree? I think he was right about the problem, but fell short on the solution.

to answer veritas' question

Man is neither evil or good by default because both qualities are subjective and it is man himself who decides what falls into which category.

Uh oh got a point

Balance is maintained by the threat of pain of death

It's like the movies, only real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destroyer (Post 560020)

I'd argue that intellect plays a bigger role than its getting credit for here

True.

After I posted, I realized that you had said this, succinctly, b4 i said
Perhaps at some point humans just realized "why pick this berry or vegetable if I can work together with fellow humans to grow them and feed the whole family? or the whole tribe. and store some for winter. and trade them for furs, which I don't have, but, this other guy who lives close by specializes in them".. etc etc
-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witty (Post 560130)

sounds very Ayn-Randish. lol.. altho i pretty much agree..
right about the problem, fell short on solution.. totalitarians certainly hurt his cause haha.

But tbh you are starting another topic...I know some basic things, but frankly I haven't read Marx... & I don't know how to answer your initial question bout the maintenance of social order without doing at least a little research.

the commie thing was me grasping for a quick example..
perhaps rather than philosophy/ideology- written my marx/engel- i should have pointed to the Russian revolution itself... The way ruling class toppled; there were breaking points, etc.
Although a new social order rose- probly quicker- than other "topplings" in different places&times.. Bah!

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaker oats (Post 560043)

In it, he makes a pretty compelling case that one of the most important aspects of social order/development is an enforced legal infrastructure. There's a reason "law" and "order" tend to go hand in hand.

Again hedging- haven't read the de Soto book... But what you've summarized here makes me wonder-- Which comes first?.. Could an enforced legal structure technically come After social order/development?... semantics?
probably more like a perpetual cycle, more laws&enforcement with more order; more order with more laws&enforcement.
Is this coherent? I think u said somethin bout a chicken&egg few weeks ago.